Tell me more ×
Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for science fiction and fantasy enthusiasts. It's 100% free, no registration required.

I'm halfway through the first half of A Storm of Swords, and so far appearances or references to every animal/symbol of every house sigil have been made, with exception to the lion of Lannister.

I mean, we've seen direwolves (Stark), stags (Baratheon), bears (Mormont), dragons (Targaryen), trouts (Tully) and eagles (although Arryn's sigil is a falcon, it is close enough and most likely exists). We know that there are sigils such as the Frey's Twins or the Martell's Sun and Spear (Sunspear) that are a reference to their "keep's" name or location. Furthermore, in page 108 of ASOS's first part, Jorah Mormont tells Daenerys that "(...)dragons(...) grew so huge that they could pluck giant krakens from the seas.", making reference to the Greyjoy's sigil animal, in a way that is not metaphorical. The Tyrell's sigil is a flower, which is explained by their natural lands, fertile and flowery. Similar to the case of House Arryn's sigil is House Florent's (we've seen wolves but not foxes, but they most likely exist in Westeros South, since their geographical and climacteric conditions will allow so).

This means that, excluding the lion of Lannister, every house sigil (that I am aware of so far) as been referenced in conditions other than metaphors (like the lion defeating the wolf, referring to this or that battle between Lannister and Stark, etc.), and/or can have its meaning traced back to its House's geographical location.

As far as I have read, no lion other than a metaphorical one (used in confrontations with other houses, reflecting the characteristics (fierce, beautiful, etc.) of some Lannister House member, etc.) or the one present in the Lannister House sigil has been spotted or referenced in the books. Judging from the geographical and climacteric conditions in Westeros, I'd say that lions are bound to be indigenous to some location further South (or perhaps they come from Essos). This begs the question: Do lions exists in Westeros or in the ASOIAF's world? If so, WHY is it the House Lannister's sigil? Shouldn't they have picked some animal natural to their geographical region or something like that?

If this question is simply something that is answered by reading the rest of the series just tell me so, and sorry for the long question.

Thank you!

share|improve this question
5  
I'll put this as a comment because I don't have the books to look up which one it is in, (it's after ASOS though). Cersei states that they had a pair of lions in a cage at Casterly Rock, of which she touched one while Jaime was too frightened to. So they do exist, and were likely imported to the Rock from overseas. – NominSim Nov 26 '12 at 18:03
Thanks for that! Still, isn't it odd that their sigil should be an imported animal, unlike every other house's sigil, which is an animal natural to their 'home'? – JNat Nov 26 '12 at 18:05
1  
I don't know if there will be an in-world answer (I've read all the books and nothing springs to mind) but GRRM is a big fan of real world heraldry, and I'd guess at least part of the choice of the Lion for Lannister was taking the meaning from our heraldry - specifically the British Lion and the use of the Lion by British figures like Richard I (the Lion Heart). Similar too in that the British Cave Lion has been extinct for maybe 12,000 years. – David Hall Nov 26 '12 at 18:12
@DavidHall: I understand that GRRM would take inspiration from a creature and heraldry from our world, but if lions didn't exist in ASOIAF's world it would be pretty weird to have a sigil with an animal from OUR world. Nice comment regarding the British Cave Lion! +1 – JNat Nov 26 '12 at 18:17
2  
Keep in mind that lions don't exist in Europe, either, yet they were the most common animal in European heraldry. And in our world, dragons and phoenixes and yales and any number of other fantastic beasts don't exist at all, but no herald ever let that minor fact bother him. – Martha Nov 27 '12 at 15:20
show 1 more comment

3 Answers

up vote 13 down vote accepted

In A Clash of Kings, Sandor Clegane tells Sansa the story of how his house came to be, and the story behind his sigil.

His father was a kennel master in service to a Lannister lord, as I recall Tyrion's grandfather, Lord Tywin's father. One day when they were out hunting, the lord came under attack from a lion, but the kennel master set his dogs on the lion and saved the lord. Three of the dogs died, and the grateful lord bestowed lands and title on his kennel master. Those three dogs were then put on the Clegane arms, in memory of their heroism.

So at least in that story, it would seem there are lions in the area of Casterly Rock.

EDIT: Found the reference:

The first knight of House Clegane was kennelmaster at Casterly Rock until he saved Lord Tytos Lannister from a lioness and lost a leg and three dogs in the effort. As a reward, Lord Tytos gave him lands and a towerhouse and took his son as his squire. The three dogs on the Clegane sigil represent those that died saving Lord Tytos.

Quoted from the wiki at westeros.org: House Clegane

EDIT 2: Exact quote from A Clash of Kings, page 262:

"I like dogs better than knights. My father's father was kennelmaster at the Rock. One autumn year, Lord Tytos came between a lioness and her prey. Lioness didn't give a shit that she was Lannister's own sigil. Bitch tore into my lord's horse and would have done for my lord too, but my grandfather came up with the hounds. Three of his dogs died running her off. My grandfather lost a leg, so Lannister paid him for it with lands and a towerhouse, and took his son to squire. The three dogs on our banner are the three that died, in the yellow of autumn grass. A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face."

share|improve this answer
1  
The story does not say, I believe. However, I believe there is mention of mountain lions somewhere, and of course snow cats at the wall. – TLP Nov 26 '12 at 20:57
1  
Personally, I also always thought that lions sounded rather exotic for what is supposed to be England. Lions to me exist in Africa, and nowhere else. ASOS is the last truly great book, IMO, so savour it. ;) AFFC and ADWD becomes extra interesting if one has read the Dunk & Egg stories, so I can recommend doing that. – TLP Nov 26 '12 at 21:22
2  
Well, much of Dunk & Egg is references to the ancient houses of Westeros and certain characters, such as Maester Aemon and his brother, king Aegon. There are many cross references between the books, but I would think that reading Dunk & Egg first would be better for spotting all the references. – TLP Nov 26 '12 at 22:02
1  
Have a look at this awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dunk_and_Egg – TLP Nov 26 '12 at 22:50
1  
Thanks! They are not compiled into a single book. However, after the fourth novella that is coming out, they're to be compiled into a book. – JNat Nov 26 '12 at 22:57
show 9 more comments

I think that whole Stark (York) and Lannister (Lancaster) feud is reference to War of Roses. Both houses descended from house Plantagenet, whose sigil was three lions on red background. Incidentally, Edward IV, who was the first Yorkist king of England, may be the 'inspiration' to Lord Eddard Stark's name.

share|improve this answer
Thanks for your answer, although I am not quite sure those are wolves. – JNat Nov 27 '12 at 17:30
1  
No need to only think that, it has been confirmed by GRRM. See this: scifi.stackexchange.com/q/4029/2256 – TLP Nov 27 '12 at 18:41
1  
There were lions, not wolves: history.stackexchange.com/questions/5683/… – DVK Nov 27 '12 at 18:51

To add on TLP's anwer, I'd like to draw a parallel to real world heraldry.

For example, the Royal Arms of England bear three "passant guardant" lions. But they are not the only ones... To name only a few, Scotland, Finland, Czech Republic and even the Philipines bear lions in their national heraldry.

And one similitude between all of these countries is that they probably never saw a lion outside of imported specimens. Oh, for sure, there used to be some species of lions found in Europe (like in Greece and Italy, for instance), but it is theorized that they left Western Europe around 10 000 years ago. So, basically, Northern Europe never saw a real lion before importation yet it is found just about everywhere in heraldry, just like griffins, dragons and unicorns. And honestly, good luck finding one of those!

In the end, people have used many different beasts, real or mythical, to represent their houses or their countries. Their primary concern was probably the strenght or power the beast projected, not wether or not said beast was found locally. To return to the Lannisters, if in the world of ASOIAF the lion also has the monicker "king of the animals", why would they select another animal as the symbol of their house, even if it's not found locally in Westeros? Shouldn't the Lannisters rule above everyone else?

share|improve this answer
There are unicorns in England. Or at least Scotland (Ref: JKR) – DVK Nov 27 '12 at 17:54
Thanks for the answer! But regarding your comment on griffins, dragons and the like, I'll need to point out that those are mythological creatures in our world, unlike the lion in Westeros. – JNat Nov 27 '12 at 20:22
1  
@JNat you are perfectly right, of course, but the core of my argument was that no one really needed to have seen the actual beast to put it on heraldry, just for it to represent something, like strength and power. Lions exist in our world too, just not in northern Europe. Yet it's probably the most used heraldic beast even though most people that use them as sigil never saw one. – Dungarth Nov 28 '12 at 13:09

Your Answer

 
discard

By posting your answer, you agree to the privacy policy and terms of service.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.