Timeline for Is Palpatine's execution of Order 66 legally justified?
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| Jun 16, 2020 at 9:31 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
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| Feb 11, 2020 at 3:17 | history | edited | DavidW | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Jul 21, 2017 at 12:40 | comment | added | TheIronCheek | @rs.29 - I choose to remain in a holding pattern and interpret everything the same way I did before the Disney buyout until it is explicitly overridden by new canon material. | |
| Jul 21, 2017 at 12:39 | comment | added | TheIronCheek | @rs.29 - I agree that it's no longer canon but when it was, we interpreted the inhibitor chip episodes in a certain way. With all the EU stuff losing its canonicity, we're left wondering whether or not those interpretations should change in the places where there is no new Disney canon material to give us the answer. This is one of those situations. | |
| Jul 21, 2017 at 5:50 | comment | added | rs.29 | @TheIronCheek They were part of EU, and now they are Legends. I'm not against EU, at that time (2007) it was not clear what Jedi really knew about clone Army. But after "Clone Wars" last episodes, Jedi almost knew everything (Sith created clones, vision of clones shooting at Jedi etc ...) . In a novel, there were 150 contingency orders, only few concerned Jedi. So it would be very hard to miss with all that knowledge, even for stupid Jedi. Simply, like many EU material, this novel become obsolete with new Canon information. | |
| Jul 20, 2017 at 19:46 | comment | added | TheIronCheek | @rs.29 - all of that material was written (including the incident with Tup) before the Disney buyout. The contingency plans were canon until then. If you want to claim that was undone, that's fine. But in the previous canon the Jedi didn't connect the dots presumably because it was buried in a large list of unlikely scenarios and reads more like it applies to a single rogue Jedi rather than the entire Order. To argue it can't be a contingency because "the Jedi would connect the dots" ignores precedent. I'm simply arguing that the chip episodes don't contradict the previously established canon. | |
| Jul 20, 2017 at 19:40 | history | edited | TheIronCheek | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 20, 2017 at 19:40 | comment | added | rs.29 | @TheIronCheek It would be very hard for Jedi to miss such contingency, especially since in last episodes of Clone Wars they learn that Dooku actually ordered creation of Clone army. Plus, Yoda had visions of clones killing Jedi . If you add to that incident with Tup, even the relatively stupid Jedi would connect the dots. | |
| Jul 20, 2017 at 19:15 | comment | added | TheIronCheek | @rs.29 - I'm not convinced that attacking the Jedi means for certain there was no legal contingency. The way I interpreted those episodes was that the inhibitor chip caused them to berserk against the Jedi when Order 66 was issued so that they would follow it unconditionally. I don't think it necessary implies that Order 66 existed only as part of the chip's protocols. | |
| Jul 20, 2017 at 9:43 | comment | added | crobar | @Anoplexian we don't know if palpatine is really the master Sith. There is considerable evidence it is really someone else | |
| Jul 20, 2017 at 6:31 | comment | added | Luaan | @Shane Certainly, war is never something that improves the economy - in a free market. The Republic is shown anything but free in this respect; it's entirely controlled by corrupt bureaucrats and government-sponsored monopolies (including the already mentioned Trade Federation). The question is, how much did this change in the Empire? Defence is certainly more responsive, decentralised and stronger overall (but also used against its own citizens). It's hard to tell with economy in general - there's certainly ways that are more repressive (e.g. the rampant speciism). | |
| Jul 20, 2017 at 2:55 | comment | added | rs.29 | @TheIronCheek Wrong understanding. When inhibitor chip malfunctioned, affected Clone (Tup) killed first nearby Jedi (Tiplar) without receiving any additional order. Therefore Order 66 was already in the chip, and chip was secret, so Order 66 was NOT contingency order. | |
| Jul 19, 2017 at 20:02 | comment | added | TheIronCheek | @rs.29 - My understanding of the inhibitor chip is that it was intended to ensure clones aggressively followed Order 66 without question and had nothing to do with the nature or content of Order 66 itself. | |
| S Jul 19, 2017 at 19:59 | history | rollback | TheIronCheek |
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| Jul 19, 2017 at 19:34 | history | suggested | CommunityBot | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
he is the senate
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| Jul 19, 2017 at 19:11 | review | Suggested edits | |||
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| Jul 19, 2017 at 18:20 | comment | added | rs.29 | @DCOPTimDowd Star Wars Republic Commando: True Colors from 2007 | |
| Jul 19, 2017 at 18:17 | comment | added | DCOPTimDowd | @rs.29 Which novel was this? | |
| Jul 19, 2017 at 17:47 | comment | added | rs.29 | Order 66 is NOT contingency order. Novel that made order 66 one of contingency orders is irrelevant because Clone Wars introduced secret inhibitor chips known only to Sith and cloners. | |
| Jul 19, 2017 at 15:57 | history | edited | TheIronCheek | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 19, 2017 at 15:46 | history | edited | TheIronCheek | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 19, 2017 at 14:54 | comment | added | Shane | @Pysis I don't know. But the question asked about him volunteering every bit of information he knew while being completely truthful. So what they can prove is largely irrelevant. | |
| Jul 19, 2017 at 14:53 | comment | added | Shane | @Luaan That's debatable, no? The republic was devastated by the war, untold resources were wasted on war machines, Alderaan is gone, there is a second massive rebellion, etc. I'm no EU enthusiast, but did the empire even do anything to strengthen the ability to put down planetary scale violence? I mean, beside all the planetary scale violence cause by the empire, I guess. IOW, What would have happened in the trade dispute had it happened under the Emperor? | |
| Jul 19, 2017 at 14:11 | comment | added | Pysis | @Shane true, but how much could they prove at the time? | |
| Jul 19, 2017 at 13:20 | history | edited | TheIronCheek | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 19, 2017 at 13:13 | history | edited | TheIronCheek | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 19, 2017 at 13:11 | comment | added | TheIronCheek | @DisturbedNeo - I agree with you on all counts. Because of the way the question is phrased, it's easier to answer from a perspective of assuming Palpatine tells the truth and admits he wasn't in fact a helpless victim and that if Windu didn't deliver a killing blow that he would have. | |
| Jul 19, 2017 at 9:19 | comment | added | DisturbedNeo | One could also argue the fact that this is a fictional planet in a fictional galaxy in a fictional universe with an entirely different set of laws and we don't know what those laws are, and I would have no rebuttal for that. | |
| Jul 19, 2017 at 9:18 | comment | added | DisturbedNeo | One could argue the fact that Palpatine had funky Sith lightning powers and was therefore still a threat, even sans Lightsaber, but Windu didn't know that and was only vulnerable to such an attack after Anakin lopped off his arm. | |
| Jul 19, 2017 at 9:17 | comment | added | DisturbedNeo | "In the real world, if an officer is attacked, he is allowed to defend himself with lethal force." That's not necessarily the case. Self defence laws (in the UK and US) state that a defender can respond to an attack with reasonable force. Once the attacker is no longer a threat, any continued physical action is unlawful. In the case of Windu, yes, Palpatine attacked him, but once Palpatine was disarmed, Mace was not legally permitted to strike him again. Killing an unarmed man at your mercy is never lawful, because they're not a threat. | |
| Jul 19, 2017 at 8:13 | comment | added | Luaan | @Shane He was a traitor, yes. But technically, he also strengthened the Republic through the Separatist insurrection. One of the original sparks was clearly seen in the Phantom menace, with the Republic entirely incapable of protecting its member against planetary-scale violence. The whole war was essentially over a tax dispute (Palpatine was a very skilled provocateur that allowed it to escalate, but that was the core issue nevertheless). What would happen if someone invaded Texas and the US did nothing? Governments have their duties, and the Republic failed theirs. | |
| Jul 19, 2017 at 3:38 | comment | added | Megha | It sounds like the deciding factor isn't if the arrest was right, but whether Palpatine in charge was in the interests of the Republic. The order doesn't mention action against the Chancellor, the Supreme Commander, or any other appointed authority - only acting against the Republic. As for whether Palpatine being in charge was actually in the best interests of the Republic, the Jedi thought the answer was no, and I agree (treason, sedition, murder). So arresting him shouldn't be against the order - even if it had turned out to be for the wrong reason or not enough proof in the end. | |
| Jul 19, 2017 at 1:41 | comment | added | Ben | Although it does say "command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established", which sounds like the intent is that the army is to be entirely removed from control of the Jedi. It's a poorly written law really. | |
| Jul 18, 2017 at 23:52 | comment | added | jpmc26 | Worth noting that the order reads "those officers," in other words, the officers that acted against the interests of the Republic. It does not say the entire Jedi Order would be removed with lethal force (unless they are demonstrably working against the Republic in whole). In our specific scenario, this would mean Windu and the company he brought with him. I don't see any way you could use that to instantly justify battlefield execution across the galaxy. Heck, depending on how you interpret the order, maybe the army was supposed to order them to step down and see how they responded first. | |
| Jul 18, 2017 at 22:51 | comment | added | Perkins | @Anoplexian You are assuming that first degree murder is illegal in all jurisdictions. (Hint: It's not.) | |
| Jul 18, 2017 at 21:06 | comment | added | Anoplexian | @Shane Technically, being the master Sith is illegal, requiring one to kill their previous master in order for it to become reality, so he's at least guilty of first degree premeditated murder. | |
| Jul 18, 2017 at 21:04 | history | edited | TheIronCheek | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 18, 2017 at 20:30 | comment | added | Shane | He was a traitor. So technically, his orders were not lawful. After that, he resisted a legal arrest, so his orders are not lawful. He murdered the legal authorities, so his subsequent orders are not lawful. Most importantly, the Jedi weren't acting against the interests of the republic, so Order 66 was definitely invalid. Yup, looks like you're right -- and he broke the law -- multiple times over. | |
| Jul 18, 2017 at 20:24 | history | edited | TheIronCheek | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 18, 2017 at 20:15 | history | edited | TheIronCheek | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 18, 2017 at 18:33 | history | edited | TheIronCheek | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 18, 2017 at 18:11 | history | edited | TheIronCheek | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 18, 2017 at 18:01 | history | answered | TheIronCheek | CC BY-SA 3.0 |