Timeline for Would the One Ring even work for anyone but Sauron?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
27 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| S Mar 11, 2022 at 23:58 | history | suggested | Lesser son | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Fixed the third quote.
|
| Mar 11, 2022 at 23:24 | review | Suggested edits | |||
| S Mar 11, 2022 at 23:58 | |||||
| Sep 26, 2021 at 14:22 | history | edited | Invisible Trihedron | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Corrected spelling (it's > its)
|
| Jul 2, 2021 at 11:05 | history | edited | Shamshiel | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
typo
|
| Jul 1, 2021 at 10:46 | vote | accept | Nerrolken | ||
| Jun 16, 2020 at 9:31 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
Commonmark migration
|
|
| Jul 29, 2019 at 23:27 | comment | added | Adamant | The point is that Gandalf would have imposed a regime where people were forced to do what was best for them, or what Gandalf thought was best for them, with extreme brutality and lack of personal choice. In the end not only would it have been outright evil because the ring would drive Gandalf to extreme oppression justified by the end goal of a perfect society, but it would lead his subjects to reject many good things because of their association with the regime, even perhaps eventually leading them to see Morgoth or Sauron and their philosophies as good. | |
| Dec 15, 2018 at 14:22 | comment | added | Shamshiel | @chiggsy: Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination? Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. | |
| Dec 15, 2018 at 14:19 | comment | added | Shamshiel | @chiggsy: Sauron's Ring and the nature of it are not known to Orcs in general - see the conversations they had about searching Frodo when he was captured. Also, the quoted Letter specifically says that Sauron has primary control of the wills of the Ringwraiths because he holds the Nine; otherwise, the implication is that Frodo could have driven away the Ringwraiths - even with Sauron holding the Nine, they would not be able to attack Frodo, and Tolkien says that Frodo could have indeed commanded the Ringwraiths in minor things regardless. | |
| Dec 15, 2018 at 3:06 | comment | added | chiggsy | @WadCheber Not just the Soviets. The French Revolution morphed into the Terrors almost instantly. A guy named Isiah Berlin had a theory about positive iiberty, where you apply coercion to a populace to take them to a higher level of existence, and negative liberty, where you use the minimum, not the maximum power. Problem is that you can't make people better by leaving them alone. Same goes for the Cromwell's Protectorate, after the English Civil war. The worst leader to have is the one who has the best intentions. | |
| Dec 15, 2018 at 2:59 | comment | added | chiggsy | I'd need to see Frodo dominate someone who was not already terrified of Sauron, as every Orc surely must have been. Sauron's ring, claimed by Frodo, should scare orcs, because they are very wisely scared of Sauron. Frodo steadily became more assertive, which was a change toward Sauron's personality. Would he drive away the Ringwraiths? Certainly not. Sauron sent them to bring him the ring, and any one of them would use it better than Frodo, who's only had it for several months, but then they would be wiped out by Sauron, who remains completely badass, with or without the ring. | |
| Sep 1, 2018 at 6:06 | comment | added | Gnudiff | @WadCheber let's start by remembering that no emperor on Earth ever considers himself evil. And then remember that, for example, Soviet Union was based (among other things) on the slogan of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". This lead to millions of dead in prison and labour camps, and even at the end of 1970ies people got sentenced to 10 years hard labour for just reading the wrong books. The examples of good going astray when possessing absolute power are numerous in history. | |
| Sep 29, 2015 at 15:11 | comment | added | John Bell | I would think Gandalf would be similar, only because of his wisdom, he would push it to greater heights. "No you can't eat salted pork because it's not good for you, and if you defy my logic I'll take your head off". Naturally this would horrify most hobbits and dwarves to the point of suicide, since they love salted pork ;) | |
| Sep 29, 2015 at 15:09 | comment | added | John Bell | I've always found it a bit annoying that he didn't elaborate further on his theory that Gandalf would've been worse. I think however what Tolkien was saying here is he would've essentially been filled with the same intentions as Sauron, only his wisdom would've made him more dangerous to Middle Earth. Sauron let's not forget originally followed Melkor because he lust for order and perfection in all things eventually becoming self-righteous because he took it upon himself to do these things for himself and others regardless of their opposition. | |
| May 15, 2015 at 0:32 | comment | added | Wad Cheber | That argument strikes me as incredibly flimsy. But if he said it, I guess most would say he was right. I'll have to let him off the hook by imagining that he was about to explain himself properly but got distracted and never finished his thought. Because this argument sounds like "he'd be as self righteous as all rulers, but whereas most rulers are mostly evil and help only themselves and their lackeys, he'd be all good and help everyone. Thus he'd be a far better ruler than has ever existed on earth, but for some reason, that makes him worse than Satan and superHitler combined" | |
| May 14, 2015 at 22:07 | comment | added | Shamshiel | @WadCheber: The remaining part of that letter is: [The draft ends here. In the margin Tolkien wrote: ‘Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left “good” clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.’] | |
| May 14, 2015 at 20:44 | comment | added | Wad Cheber | @Shamshiel - did Tolkien say anything more about "Gandalf as Ring-lord"? He says Gandalf would have been "far worse" than Sauron if he had the Ring, but the worst thing he would do, according to the portion of the letter you quoted, is be "self righteous" and order things "for the good" - which doesn't sound so bad. He must have gone on to explain why a self righteous but benevolent Gandalf as Ring-lord would have been worse than Sauron. | |
| Feb 13, 2015 at 15:06 | history | edited | Shamshiel | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 420 characters in body
|
| Jan 18, 2014 at 3:18 | comment | added | Shamshiel | @JimmyShelter: To expand on that, the Ring "wants" to be used. To Tolkien, the Ring was "the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies." I'll add that to my answer if you think it is relevant; I am afraid it is growing too long. | |
| Jan 18, 2014 at 3:09 | history | edited | Shamshiel | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Added additional letter reference.
|
| Jan 18, 2014 at 2:57 | comment | added | Shamshiel | @JimmyShelter: It needs no explanation - the Ring gives imaginations of supreme power (as Tolkien said, it is the will to mere power given form.) Clearly it does not give that to anyone, not even Sauron: his own servants fled before the Numenoreans, and he expended huge amounts of time and energy on gaining power over the Numenoreans. But that does mean the Ring does not grant power; it most certainly does. We have many actual examples, the words of Tolkien, and the words characters to prove it. | |
| Jan 18, 2014 at 2:39 | comment | added | user8719 | @Shamshiel - you haven't explained the "essential deceit of the Ring" line. Until you do so, your answer seems dubious. | |
| Jan 17, 2014 at 15:14 | comment | added | WillAdams | Another minor typo in the last quote, ``Do no try'' --- not? | |
| Jan 17, 2014 at 3:45 | history | edited | Shamshiel | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 784 characters in body
|
| Jan 16, 2014 at 17:50 | comment | added | Christopher Done | “Motive” should probably be “motif” if I'm not misinterpreting the reading. | |
| Jan 16, 2014 at 13:34 | history | edited | Shamshiel | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Fixing typos.
|
| Jan 16, 2014 at 1:04 | history | answered | Shamshiel | CC BY-SA 3.0 |