Timeline for Why didn't mastery of the Elder Wand move on from Harry?
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28 events
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| May 15, 2015 at 13:24 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | @JMFB I’ve added an answer now. Not all the details and thoughts included in the comments here are in it, since it was plenty long already; but there are some quotes to underpin the theory (and a few links to previous answers on this site that say more or less the same thing). | |
| May 14, 2015 at 23:45 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | @JMFB Not quite like any other wand. Hermione didn't win the allegiance of Malfoy's wand when she punched him in the face, for example, but the examples of knifing and just overcoming in any way being enough for the Elder Wand to change its allegiance does show that it works differently. Though it's interesting why Bellatrix' wand won't work for Hermione (no defeating, no allegiance change), but members of the DA don't lose their wands' allegiances when they Expelliarmus each other in practice, either—that ought really to count as defeating, too. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 23:42 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | @JMFB True: whether death is necessary or not, he probably did not know that Draco had stunned Dumbledore first. But he did (erroneously) recognise when he killed Snape that it was his only way of winning the wand's allegiance. I'm currently about two thirds through re-reading Deathly Hallows. I'll write up an answer for this question once I'm through, gathering all the relevant quotes to make a more complete case. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 23:41 | comment | added | JMFB | @JanusBahsJacquet exactly my point. He wasn't concerned about the wand being ownerless, because it didn't really matter if it was ownerless. It did matter however if it's allegiance was to somebody else. How was the elder wand different in terms of how its allegiance changed? It functioned just like every other wand in that matter. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 23:38 | comment | added | JMFB | @JanusBahsJacquet It's true that Grindelwald stunned Gregorovitch. VM knew a ton about wand lore. For example he realized that his and Harry's' wands were Priori Incantatem. He couldn't figure out why it wasn't working for him, which was why he went to Ollivander, not because he wasn't well versed in wand lore. He killed Snape because he didn't know that Draco had disarmed DD before Snape got to DD. Can you cite anything from canon for all that you claim? I've never read or seen any of the things your claiming. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 23:33 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | Or rather, when he took the wand, he didn't seem to be thinking much about allegiances and masters at all—he just wanted the Deathstick. It wasn't until he realised that it didn't work very well for him at all that he even started considering that maybe the wand's allegiance lay elsewhere. Also remember that even Ollivander (who certainly did know his wandlore) didn't know exactly how allegiance shifts worked with the Elder Wand; he only suspected that it was somehow different from other wands. Harry didn't know either: he surmised and was luckily proved right. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 23:31 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | @JMFB We don't know how Gregorovitch got the wand, but Grindelwald stunned Gregorovitch and thus won it from him. And no, Voldemort did not know all that much about wandlore—that's why he needed Ollivander to give him information. He did not know, either, that death was not needed to take over the Elder Wand: he didn't think it was ownerless when he took it; he thought its master was Snape, that's why he killed him. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 23:28 | comment | added | JMFB | @JanusBahsJacquet In fact VM thought the elder wand was ownerless when he took it from DD's grave. VM being quite possibly the greatest and smartest wizard ever knew the rules of the wands. He wouldn't have broken into DD's grave and started using it if he thought it was powerless. Gregorovich didn't win the elder wand and he used it. Grindelwald stole it from Gregorovich, so he didn't win it and he used it as his wand. I'm not so sure your concept of wand lore, actual evidence from canon, or how ownership or power of the elder wand worked is quite accurate. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 23:28 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | @JMFB I doubt Dumbledore ever expected to be facing Draco in such a weakened state—that, and the second he used on petrifying Harry, was the chink in his plan. In Dumbledore’s plan, any lesser spell Draco cast would have been easily parried, but as it is, he never had the time. When they arrived at the Tower, they didn’t know whom they’d be facing; had it been the Carrows, he would obviously not have wanted to just be unarmed. The Elder Wand would not be just a stick without an owner, but it would be just a wand with no extra special powers, which were limited to its master. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 23:23 | comment | added | JMFB | @JanusBahsJacquet I would think the opposite, it'd be quite clear to DD that Draco wouldn't cast AK but probably a lesser disarming spell. So it made perfect sense that Draco would become the owner. Otherwise DD could just not have pulled his wand out at all. And what makes you think that the Elder Wand would lose its power if it didn't have an owner? Wands don't lose their power just because they're ownerless. In fact you can use a wand that isn't even your own which is evidenced throughout the book including VM's use of the elder wand. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 19:29 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | Again, only circumstantial evidence. Dumbledore knew with near-complete certainty that Draco was not a killer (his confidence at the Tower bears that out). He used this and Snape’s Unbreakable Vow to make sure that when his death came, it would be in a way that left him undefeated, so the Elder Wand lost its power (and hence, danger, especially in the hands of Voldemort). Draco disarming Dumbledore screwed that plan up completely—suddenly, the Elder Wand’s allegiance and power lived on, which was exactly what he was trying to avoid. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 19:26 | comment | added | JMFB | @JanusBahsJacquet ah so it's conjecture on your part. I do like the thought process, and will have to consider it. I'd like to know what your proof is that Dumbledore did not intend to be disarmed by Draco. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 19:25 | comment | added | JMFB | @JanusBahsJacquet also what is your proof that Dumbledore did not intend to be disarmed by Draco? | |
| May 14, 2015 at 19:24 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | Only inasmuch as it’s the only answer that truly makes sense and ties everything together—and of course the circumstantial evidence that Dumbledore spends so much time making Harry see that choices and intent are much more important than prophecies and things like that. And doesn’t Harry himself at some point figure out that Dumbledore meant for the allegiance to die with him? I can’t remember now if I’ve got that from the actual books or from somewhere else. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 19:22 | comment | added | JMFB | @JanusBahsJacquet I like your answer. It's better than any I've heard. especially the ones above. I understand intent. Are you saying intent is the only factor that matters then? Do you have any in-universe support for this? | |
| May 14, 2015 at 19:21 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | Similarly, when Harry is killed by Voldemort in the Forest, he intends to be killed, and the wand does not change its allegiance. If Seamus Finnigan had suddenly jumped out from behind a tree and and disarmed Harry just before, then he would have been the master of the Elder Wand. And if Harry hadn’t had a piece of Voldemort inside, which enabled him to return to life, then the Elder Wand’s allegiance would simply have died: it would have recognised no master. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 19:19 | comment | added | Janus Bahs Jacquet | As you say, fighting, putting up a defence, and dying are all irrelevant to being defeated. But its master’s intent is relevant. If you go into a duel with the preexisting intention of being successfully hit by a spell (and suffering the consequences of that spell), then being hit by that spell is not defeat. Snape’s Avada Kedavra would not have won him the allegiance of the Elder Wand, since Dumbledore would not have been defeated. But Dumbledore did not intend to be disarmed by Draco—that was a defeat. It allowed allegiance to pass on, rather than die with Dumbledore. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 18:59 | history | edited | JMFB | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Corrected my opening sentence to include in universe, as I am giving an answer just not an in universe one as there is none
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| May 14, 2015 at 18:57 | comment | added | JMFB | @DaveJohnson Maybe I should clarify, there is no in universe answer. The answer is the one I gave, which is that it's a plot hole. Hence my second and last sentences. The end of my second sentence: "...there is no acceptable answer, other than it's a plot hole." My last sentence: "So my answer is that it's a plot hole, and a large gaping one at that." So how about a "+1" instead of your "-1" for the thoroughness, thought process, use of citations, and form? And you can "-" the other lacking answers lacking thought and logic instead of mine if you feel like it. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 18:50 | comment | added | Dave Johnson | -1 If there is no acceptable answer, why are you posting one? Also, Dumbledore couldn't put up a fight on the roof, on account of the curse-water. | |
| May 14, 2015 at 17:01 | history | edited | JMFB | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Changed some bad edits, formatted better, changed some language, spelling, been on site and understand how to frame answers better.
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| Feb 16, 2015 at 20:05 | comment | added | JMFB | "BUT SHOULD HE FAIL..." He arranged that if Draco failed Snape would do it. Since Lucius Malfoy didn't have the stomach for it he had a strong feeling that Draco wouldn't carry it out. Of course he didn't want a young boy to commit a murder. But that was not his PRIMARY concern. His PRIMARY concern was that Snape had Voldemorts confidence to make sure that Harry fulfilled his destiny. | |
| Feb 11, 2015 at 15:43 | comment | added | GreenMatt | Dumbledore accepted that the curse would kill him in a relatively short time. Knowing the Death Eaters wanted Draco to murder him, Dumbledore worked to prevent that; referring to Draco he said: "That boy's soul is not yet so damaged. I would not have it ripped apart on my account." Thus he arranged for Snape to be the one to kill him when it came to that. | |
| Feb 9, 2015 at 16:10 | comment | added | JMFB | I was simply stating that Dumbledore accepted the fact that he was going to be murdered whether it be by Draco's hand or Snape's. Dumbledore: Don't ignore me, Severus. We both know Lord Voldemort has ordered the Malfoy boy to murder me. BUT SHOULD HE FAIL, I should presume the Dark Lord will turn to you. You must be the one to kill me... DD clearly would rather have snape do it, Harry's parents be alive, VM be a good guy, etc., but he was clearly willing to accept his fate by the hand of Draco and that was my point. I do encourage you to address something more Germane to my post. | |
| Jan 30, 2015 at 19:30 | history | edited | phantom42 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
removed unnecessary bits
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| Jan 30, 2015 at 16:27 | history | edited | JMFB | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
edited body I made two edits, one letter each, simply grammar, that's what I get for typing this a 3 in the morning.
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| Jan 30, 2015 at 15:20 | comment | added | GreenMatt | Dumbledore did NOT want to be killed by Draco, as that would be murder and thus damaging to Draco's soul; damage which Dumbledore wanted to prevent. OTOH, dying at Snape's hand was a sort of mercy killing, since Snape knew Dumbledore had been fatally cursed. | |
| Jan 30, 2015 at 7:58 | history | answered | JMFB | CC BY-SA 3.0 |