Timeline for What is the last written record from Arda?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
15 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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| May 17, 2023 at 13:09 | comment | added | m4r35n357 | @user8719 HoME makes much more sense when you take a "timeslice" - the most complete mythology is from the 1937 Quenta Silmarillion (with gaps filled from the Quenta Noldorinwa of 1930). To support these "Tales of the Jewels, there are some complete supporting documents; the Ainulindale (creation story), the Ambarkanta (geological history), the Lhammas (note on languages), and the Later Annals (which are IMO later than the QS as they refer to Balar, and have a more complete War of Wrath story). The way certain details are "distributed" between separate documents is an added attraction! | |
| Apr 22, 2015 at 3:25 | answer | added | M. A. Golding | timeline score: 2 | |
| Apr 14, 2015 at 18:33 | comment | added | Matt Gutting | @DarthMelkor I see what you're saying (though I'm not certain I agree); but in this particular case I'd say that there's definite contradiction between Aelfwine's involvement in the Akallabeth, on the one hand, and the statement about the Silmarillion material coming from Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish. | |
| Apr 14, 2015 at 18:20 | comment | added | user8719 | @MattGutting - I personally rank the non-editorial narratives and essays in HoME higher than the published Silmarillion, because they present what Tolkien actually wrote, but at the same time it must be accepted that there is a lot of contradiction in them. They generally are a reliable source for his last thoughts on a subject, and where they are consistent with material published in Tolkien's lifetime I'd argue that they should take priority. | |
| Apr 14, 2015 at 17:34 | comment | added | Matt Gutting | @DarthMelkor Hm. Are we talking History of Middle-Earth here? digs out HoME I think part of the problem is the vexing "What's canon in Middle-earth?" with its annoying answer "It depends on what period of Tolkien's life you're talking about." I usually don't take HoME in the same sense as The Hobbit, LoTR, or The Silmarillion because of the high level of editorial narration involved. (Not that The Silmarillion didn't have a lot of editorial involvement, but it didn't push it in your face like HoME does.) | |
| Apr 13, 2015 at 17:56 | comment | added | user8719 | There are records made by AElfwine of England that date to the late first millennium of our time and supposedly made during or after his stay on Tol Eressea. These survived into Tolkien's post-LotR writings, such as the last version of the Akallabeth | |
| Apr 13, 2015 at 17:19 | comment | added | Lexible | @MattGutting Huh! Well I'll be! | |
| Apr 13, 2015 at 17:16 | comment | added | Matt Gutting | @Lexible And "the evidence cited" is a quote from The Lord Of The Rings: "in the Note on the Shire Records added to the Prologue in [the second edition] my father said that the content of 'the three large volumes bound in red leather' was preserved in that copy of the Red Book of Westmarch which was made in Gondor by the King's Writer Findegil in the year 172 of the Fourth Age." This is what (in the frame narrative) became The Silmarillion. | |
| Apr 13, 2015 at 17:14 | comment | added | Matt Gutting | @Lexible Christopher Tolkien, in the Foreword to The Book of Lost Tales, Part I states: "the 'books of lore' that Bilbo gave to Frodo provided in the end the solution: they were 'The Silmarillion'. But apart from the evidence cited here, there is, so far as I know, no other statement on this matter anywhere in my father's writings; and (wrongly, as I think now) I was reluctant to step into the breach and make definite what I only surmised." | |
| Apr 13, 2015 at 16:36 | comment | added | Lexible | @MattGutting Including The Silmarillion? Source? (If so: Mind. Blown.) | |
| Apr 13, 2015 at 15:03 | comment | added | Matt Gutting | Yes, essentially that's the extent of the "Frame Story" that Tolkien came up with; everything including The Silmarillion is, or is a novelization of, material from the Thain's Book. | |
| Apr 13, 2015 at 14:46 | comment | added | unor | @MattGutting: Ah, so is this book the only written source from Arda (that we have "access to" ;))? Didn’t know that. | |
| Apr 13, 2015 at 14:39 | comment | added | Matt Gutting | Given that the Thain's Book (the Gondorian transcription of the Red Book of Westmarch to which you refer) is the source of our information about Arda - that is, the in-universe source of the information which became The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and The Silmarillion - it seems futile to ask this, since you're asking essentially "Is there anything written after The Thain's Book was finished, and included in The Thain's Book?" - that's clearly not possible. | |
| Apr 13, 2015 at 14:28 | comment | added | KutuluMike | as of the time that you asked your question, it was your question. it has now been superseded by this comment. | |
| Apr 13, 2015 at 14:01 | history | asked | unor | CC BY-SA 3.0 |