66

In Episode III, Darth Sidious explains to Anakin the power of the Dark Side to save people from death. He mentions Darth Plagueis - the Sith who discovered this. Sidious then claims he died, which seems odd, given that kind of power.

Then in Episode VII (The Force Awakens) we find a Sith Lord who has appeared from no where. There seems to be two loose ends that fit nicely together.

My question is: Is there evidence to suggest that Supreme Leader Snoke is Darth Plagueis?

  • 4
    Is there any reason to even remotely suspect it was Plagueis and not any other Sith lord? (Sidious, for that matter)? – DVK-on-Ahch-To Dec 17 '15 at 14:00
  • 14
    “in Episode VII we find a Sith Lord who has appeared from nowhere” — is there any evidence that Snoke is actually a Sith Lord, or even Force-sensitive? I may have missed it, but despite the obvious parallels in his presentation to that of Palpatine in the original trilogy, do we get any dialogue or actions suggesting that? – Paul D. Waite Dec 17 '15 at 14:58
  • 3
    Note, D. Plagueis was murdered (in his sleep) by his apprentice D. Sidious, so it is not strange at all – Max Dec 17 '15 at 15:15
  • 4
    @Paul D. Waite, well he said something about finishing Kylo Training. He also wanted Kylo to take Rey to him. For training I guess. – Alessandro Sanfilippo Dec 17 '15 at 16:46
  • 9
    I thought he was just the latest incarnation of Voldemort. – mxyzplk Dec 19 '15 at 15:53
55

UPDATE #3

As of The Last Jedi release (12/2017), there was almost[1] NO additional canon information that clarified who or what Snoke was. We see a better image of him in Episode VIII, we see details of his fashion sense, but that's about it - presumably, on purpose by Story group.

As the intended assumption is that he's now dead by the "hand" of Kylo Ren, chances are we wouldn't be finding those details out anyway. Let The Past Die.

Personally, I'm starting to fall into CBR's point of view camp: "Snoke May Be Star Wars’ Greatest MacGuffin".

[1] - except for a vague thing about Sages of Dwartii and obsidian ring from Mustafar, from Visual Dictionary. And an even vague maybe possible visual similarity between his face and outline of Prime Jedi in Visual Dictionary.

UPDATE #2

To complement Andy Serkis, Pablo Hidalgo on Twitter just confirmed that Snoke isn't Plagueis (or rather, that Plagueis "truly, deeply" died.

Witka ‏@timvitkuske Apr 30
@pablohidalgo Can you confirm that Snoke is NOT Plagueis? Can you confirm that Plagueis is dead?

Pablo Hidalgo @pablohidalgo
@timvitkuske Plagueis was killed by his apprentice. He's dead.

And further in a later tweet:

Witka ‏@timvitkuske May 8
@pablohidalgo my real question to put it to rest, is did Plagueis' spirit survive physical death through the dark side? @colliderjedicouncil

Pablo Hidalgo @pablohidalgo
@timvitkuske he was said to possess the ability to keep loved ones from dying. Not himself. His apprentice killed him.

... and just to be absolutely sure:

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo May 8 @Daniel_Outhier @Gary_Thursby @timvitkuske Sidious killed Plagueis. Ascending to master. As is the way of the Sith.

Marissa Talchi @MarissaTalchi
@pablohidalgo @Daniel_Outhier @Gary_Thursby @timvitkusk You didn't answer the Q. Is he actually dead or does Sidious think he's dead?

Pablo Hidalgo @pablohidalgo
@MarissaTalchi @Daniel_Outhier @Gary_Thursby I said Sidious killed Plagueis. He killed him. Killed. As in "to kill". Like, there was killing
4:10 PM - 8 May 2016

UPDATE #1

The actor behind Snoke (Andy Serkis) has just stated to Entertainment Weekly that Snoke is an original character

Although there was much speculation about who Snoke might turn out to be (one popular theory was that he’d turn out to be a Sith Lord known from the prequels as Darth Plagueis) he actually turns out to be … just Snoke.

Serkis said the character was aware of the events from the earlier films but was a new addition to the storyline.

Of course, he may have been mis-informed himself (ala secrets in production of OT), or misinterpreting something, or intentionally hiding the truth for Disney; so until we have independent iron-clad confirmation, this is convincing but not conclusive evidence.


Yes, there's some scant evidence. Frankly, I think the theory is false because Kylo Ren isn't a Sith (as per J.J. Abrams interview).

There's a VERY good article here: http://newmediarockstars.com/2015/12/snoke-darth-plagueis-star-wars-force-awakens/ - which lists a lot of evidence both for and against the theory.

The evidence against contains statements from J.J. Abrams, Pablo Hidalgo and Lawrence Kasdan. Oh, and George Lucas's statement that "Chosen one bringing Balance to the Force" means that Anakin got rid of all Sith :)

The evidence for is based on the facts that:

  1. In Legends/EU canon (Darth Plagueis book) Plagueis was a Muun. Muuns are:

    • Tall

    • Thin

    • Look like this:

      enter image description here

  2. Supreme Leader Snoke is:

    • Tall and thin.

      But Neal Scanlan, chief of creature and droid effects, told PEOPLE, “This character is much better executed as a CGI character. That’s just a practical reality when he’s 7-foot-something tall; he’s very, very thin.” (source)

      From Alan Dean Fosters TFA novelization, Chapter X:

      Seated on the raised platform that was the focus of the chamber was the blue-tinted holo of Supreme Leader Snoke. Tall and gaunt, he was humanoid but not human.
      Seated in shadow, the tall, slender form loomed over the other two men.

    • Looks slightly kind of like a Muun

      enter image description here

      UPDATE: having watched the film, he does look VERY MUCH like a picture of Muun from Clone Wars cartoon in certain frames. I will post screenshots when I can get them.

    • A Spanish language magazine posted a drawing depicting several characters, Snoke among them. There, he looks VERY MUCH like a Muun from Clone Wars:

      enter image description here

      News site Colliders published a video confirming this story.

      Then, according to the article linked, LucasFilm asked Collider to remove that picture (that looks exactly like a Muun) from their video. Which can be interpreted as "too accurate and a spoiler", but of course also as "Not accurate" :)

  3. This one isn't from the article linked (source), and of course is also at best barely remote circumstantial evidence:

    But look back to 1983 and an interview in Prevue magazine with Return of the Jedi director Richard Marquand. In the interview he mentions having discussed the entire nine episode saga with George Lucas.

    ‘If you follow the direction, and project into the final trilogy, you realise that you’re going to meet the supreme intellect, and you think how is it possible to create a man who has such profound cunning that he can not only control Darth Vader, but the fate of Luke Skywalker? Control the destiny of the whole galaxy? You’ll be amazed!’

    And we know from canon/EU that Muuns are highly intelligent overall (and Plagueis more so than average)

  4. Minor circumstantial evidence arises out of TFA novelisation by A.D.Foster:

    “Kylo Ren, I watched the Galactic Empire rise, and then fall. The gullible prattle on about the triumph of truth and justice, of individualism and free will. As if such things were solid and real instead of simple subjective judgements. The historians have it all wrong. It was neither poor strategy nor arrogance that brought down the Empire. You know too well what did.”

    This means he's OLD. Older than Luke.

  • 3
    Full disclosure: Having seen the film AND some close-up shots, I'm abbout 80% convinced by now that based on just looks, Snoke is a Muun. – DVK-on-Ahch-To Dec 26 '15 at 1:52
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    I don't know that we can take JJ Abrams at his word. After all, Benedict Cumberbatch didn't play Khan, right? – Xantec Dec 29 '15 at 13:53
  • 1
    @Xantec - SPOILERS, dude! I didn't see #2 ST:POS yet! – DVK-on-Ahch-To Dec 29 '15 at 14:21
  • 1
    Hamill and Fischer didn't know Luke and Leia were twins, neither of the guys that went into the making of Darth Vader knew he was Luke's father. – Slacklord the Terrible Jan 4 '16 at 20:20
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    I don't think he really looks like a Muun, the proportions of his face aren't nearly long enough vertically compared to the width--look at this very clear image (and please consider adding it or another image of Snoke to your answer next to the picture of the Muun, so readers can draw their own conclusions) – Hypnosifl Feb 5 '16 at 11:00
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Snoke seems to be missing his lower jaw, which is similar to an injury Darth Plagueis received years before the Phantom Menace when he was training Palpatine. There is no evidence that directly proves or disproves that Snoke is Plagueis, but it certainly seems like the route they're going on.

Plagueis preferred working behind the scenes, so it would be within his character to make Palpatine think that he killed his master while just waiting for the right time to come out of the shadows. Episode VII doesn't do anything to explain this, but I'm sincerely hoping that this is what they plan on doing in future instalments.

  • 2
    +1 sounds relevant, but what's the information source for Plagueis having such a jaw injury? Or that Palpatine thinks he killed Plagueis? – user568458 Dec 22 '15 at 17:07
  • @user568458 starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Transpirator – Tim Dec 25 '15 at 8:03
  • @user568458 Palpatine says, in his 3rd person telling of the story to Anakin, that he killed Plagueis in his sleep. – Slacklord the Terrible Jan 4 '16 at 20:22
  • @Axelrod When was that? Was that epIII? – user568458 Jan 4 '16 at 20:53
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    @user568458 it was epIII. Here's the scene: youtube.com/watch?v=05dT34hGRdg – MaxD Jan 5 '16 at 14:10
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Here is some additional evidence, which I haven't already seen discussed anywhere.

Similar Theme Music

If you listen to the Force Awakens soundtrack song titled "Snoke" and listen to the Revenge of Sith song titled "Palpatine's Teachings" (when Palpatine teaches Anakin about Plagueis), you will find that they are too similar to be a coincidence.

Darth Plagueis Novel Cover

I haven't read the Darth Plagueis novel, and it is only a Star Wars "Legend", but the front cover shows Palpatine kneeling before a gigantic Plagueis, just like in the new movie.

enter image description here

  • 1
    I would gladly upvote this if someone actually provided objective analysis of the music's similarity (fourier, or some other analysis). I keep hearing that it's simiular, but with music, that is a wee bit subjective to determine via listening only. – DVK-on-Ahch-To Jan 1 '16 at 19:38
1

The actor, Andy Serkis, who plays Snoke states he is a entirely different, new character:

"...It is very much a newly - introduced character...He's aware of what's gone on, in the respect that he has been around and is aware of prior events. I think it'd be fair to say he is aware of the past to a great degree... Supreme Leader Snoke is quite an enigmatic character, and strangely vulnerable at the same time as being quite powerful. Obviously he has a huge agenda. He has suffered a lot of damage. As I said, there is a strange vulnerability to him, which belies his true agenda..."

  • It's considered good form to credit your sources – Jason Baker Oct 25 '16 at 16:05
-1

I think him being a Muun makes it a pretty good chance that is Darth Plagueis. Someone as strong in the force could easily manipulate an apprentices mind. He can also bring people back to life and transfer himself to other bodies. How many Muuns do we ever see in Star Wars and dark side?

-3

My theory is that Snoke could be Plageuis. Because there are always 2 sith. Palpatine could have thought he killed him but because Plageuis could manipulate death basically he'd be alive still. Plageuis having "lost" to palpatine the mantle of master and apprentice has shifted and Vader becomes palpatine a apprentice. Keeping with the rule of 2 palpatine nor Vader would have another apprentice so naturally there shouldn't be anyone who knows the dark side of the force come their deaths. Unless Plageuis was in exile and found this his opportunity to strike and reclaime the throne, possibly changing his name to avoid any conflict in ideology. the last empire was ran by a, "Darth" so I think some people would be a little off put about joining up. Idk just my theory but I could be way off.

-6

Let me clear this all up.

Kylon Ren had to kill his father to complete his training to become a sith as you have to kill someone close to you. He then will get granted the darth title by Snoke. Snoke is definitely darth plageuis since plageuis was referred to as 'the wise' and Kylo Ren says "The Supreme Leader is wise."

He is also tall like darth plageuis among a similar complexion if not a little warped. Finally darth plageuis was scared of losing his power and manipulates from the shadows like Snoke. This also goes on to theorize he created Anakin since he had the powers to do this in creating life and seeks his heir.

  • 9
    Anakin says that Obi-Wan is "as wise as master Yoda". Is it proof that Yoda could be Plagueis then? :P – LcSalazar Dec 18 '15 at 9:25
  • It has already been explained in interviews that Kylo Ren isn't affiliated to the Sith but to the "Knights of Ren", whatever they may be. – Andres F. Dec 22 '15 at 0:09

protected by Community Dec 18 '15 at 12:59

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