Warning: There are spoilers from Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

Wikipedia says:

Jedi Knights become so only when they have completed "the trials" (final tests) and may continue to pursue a third-class education (see below) to obtain the equivalent of a habilitation or post-doctoral degree.

The five tests are usually known as Trial of Skill, the Trial of Courage, the Trial of the Flesh, the Trial of Spirit, and the Trial of Insight (or Knowledge). In Return of the Jedi, Master Yoda gives his apprentice, Luke Skywalker, the trial of confronting Darth Vader for a second time so he might become a full-fledged Knight. Occasionally, performing an extraordinary (usually heroic) act can earn a Padawan learner Jedi status, such as when Obi-Wan Kenobi defeats the Sith Lord Darth Maul. By the time of the movies distinct "battle classes" were not necessary as the Republic had not seen war in over a thousand years, and the title of Knight was simply a rank once again.

But I'm still confused after watching Star Wars: The Force Awakens and I have a question about Kylo Ren as part of the general question.

Kylo Ren is a member of the Knights of Ren. Does it make him an equivalent of a Jedi Knight? What does "Knight" mean in this group?

From starwars.wikia.com:

Ben was taken by his uncle Luke Skywalker to become his Jedi apprentice in Skywalker's new Jedi Academy. However, Ben was drawn to the dark side as a result of his obsession with the legacy of his grandfather, Darth Vader. Believing he was too weak to live up to his grandfather as a Jedi, Ben was lured to the dark side by a mysterious Force-user named Snoke.

How did he become powerful like a Dark Side Force User then? Towards the end of Star Wars: The Force Awakens, The Supreme Leader Snoke says that "It's time to complete his training" after Kylo Ren is defeated by Rey.

What does Snoke mean by completing the training? Is he going to become a Sith? What is the final training? Is it confronting Luke?

Is there a final training both for a Jedi and a Sith?

  • 1
    Is Kylo Ren going to become a Sith Lord? Well, he'd have to be a Sith first.
    – phantom42
    Dec 21, 2015 at 20:03
  • @phantom42: Oh, I should change "Sith Lord" to "Sith". Thanks.
    – ermanen
    Dec 21, 2015 at 20:05
  • Did snoke say "he is ready to finish his training."? I thought the line was "it is time to finished his training." Which really has a completely different meaning in the context of your question.
    – Mayshar
    Dec 21, 2015 at 20:27
  • @Mayshar: I couldn't remember the exact wording. Is it exactly "It is time to finish his training"? I can edit the question if it is but I don't see how it is completely different.
    – ermanen
    Dec 21, 2015 at 20:38
  • I dont feel confident enough to tell you "Yes" but I thought it was the latter. As for the difference, if im correct, there isnt necessarily any implication that some "training" event has happened that now makes him ready to complete his sith training. More so, now there is a real threat in a real live Jedi(Rey) and Luke will most likely be returning to action, making two Jedi. Snoke needs a full apprentice to combat this. Whether Ren is "ready" or not is most likely irrelevant to Snoke.
    – Mayshar
    Dec 21, 2015 at 20:41

4 Answers 4


First of all, Snoke and the Knights of Ren are NOT Sith. This will be important later in the answer.

When one is said to be "ready" to "complete his training", it usually means the moment when one is ready to complete his/her final stage of apprenticeship. In this case it refers to the moment when a Jedi is ready to undergo the final trials to qualify for Knighthood, or when a Sith apprentice is ready to become a master. Generalising, any Force user's trials involves testing his/her ability to stay true to his alignment in the Force and readiness to advance the goals of his/her chosen order. The trials can thus be broken down into two key components:

  • The ability to overcome and resist the temptation of the dark side, and master the emotions that lead to it (for light-siders) or to embrace said emotions and the power of the dark side while resisting the call of the light and, in effect, overcoming one's moral conscience and "humanity" (for dark-siders)
  • The readiness to serve as a guardian of the galaxy (for light-siders) or to advance the cause to wipe out the Jedi Order and any other light-siders first and foremost, and conquer the galaxy second (for dark-siders)

The above is the general theme that can be inferred out of all Force users in canon so far who is deemed "ready".

The Jedi Order during the Galactic Republic era has a formalised system of trials to testing Padawans. The Five Trial system you quoted belongs to Legends, not canon. In Disney canon, the Jedi Trials consist of nine steps, each testing the Padawans ability to stay true to the Jedi ways in nine aspects:

teamwork, isolation, fear, anger, betrayal, focus, instinct, forgiveness, protection.

Since you've quoted it, I'll also elaborate on Legends' Five Trial system. The standard test during the Republic's Golden Age (the era when the Sith are thought to be no more) and acceptable alternatives to bypass the corresponding trial is given.

  • Trial of Skill: Avoiding distraction through self-discipline while engaged in lightsaber combat with a designated opponent and battlefield, emerging victorious. Bypassed if the Padawan bested a battlemaster during a sparring session or achieved "blindfolded mastery of the saber training exercise Faalo's Cadences".
  • Trial of Courage: A demonstration of courage in dangerous missions, either simulated or actual. Death is entirely possible. Bypassed in special circumstances on a case-by-case basis. Examples include overcoming a crisis that involves saving his/her Master's life, or surviving a Sith battle encounter.
  • Trial of the Flesh: The overcoming of great pain or loss, physical or emotional. Said pain is frequently applied during the test itself - bloodshed is common. Bypassed in cases where Padawans overcame existing pain/loss of an acceptable level. Examples include Padawans who experienced (and remembered) loss of family prior to joining the Order and successfully overcame those emotions.
  • Trial of the Spirit: Facing the Mirror - facing and overcoming the darkness within themselves through meditative self-discovery. Potentially extremely dangerous, the journey is beyond the control of any Jedi Master. It is possible for one to lose his/her sanity. Such trials are always supervised by a Master, whose role is to guide you to the darkest depths of your mind and back, but not defining its details. Bypassed if the Padawan demonstrates the same mastery of their own dark side by other means.
  • Trial of Insight: The final test - The ability to seek, through the Force, the truth that is hidden from one's physical senses. Puzzles stored in the Jedi archives are randomly selected. Key elements involve the use of the Force to see past illusion, disguise, lies etc. Bypassed through the demonstration of wisdom beyond his/her years - especially in the divination of solutions to successfully avoid violence.

The Sith Order of the Galactic Republic and Empire era operates according to the Rule of Two:

Always two there are. One to embody power, the other to crave it.

Two Dark Lords of the Sith: One a master, the other an apprentice. When the apprentice has learnt all he could and is strong enough to kill the master in a duel to the death, he is deemed ready to take his master's place as supreme lord of the Sith. This philosophy is best explained by Palpatine himself, the final culmination of the Rule of Two at its pinnacle of success (cr: Lords of the Sith):

Soon after destroying the Jedi, the Emperor had told Vader that he would one day be tempted to kill him. He’d said that the relationship between Sith apprentice and Master was symbiotic but in a delicate balance. An apprentice owed his Master loyalty. A Master owed his apprentice knowledge and must show only strength. But the obligations were reciprocal and contingent. Should either fail in his obligation, it was the duty of the other to destroy him. The Force required it. Since before the Clone Wars, Vader’s Master had never shown anything but strength, and so Vader intended to show nothing but loyalty. In that way, their mutual rule was secure. Perhaps Vader would attempt to kill his Master one day. Sith apprentices ordinarily did. They must, if they were trained well. An apprentice was unquestioningly loyal until the moment he wasn’t. Both Master and apprentice knew this.

In other words, once the master has taught all he can, and the apprentice equals the master in mastery of the dark side - in effect, he has grown to be a master himself - then the two must battle to determine who is the greater master, the lesser to be slain, for there can only be one of each role at any time.

As for Kylo Ren, he is not a Jedi nor a Sith. So the trials listed above do not apply. There's no standardised test we know of, nor any master to kill. However, his readiness to "complete his training" still follow the same two principles listed above: Extinguishing the light within him and demonstrating the ability to exterminate the Jedi. As for what Snoke means by the final training...we'll know in Ep IIX, hopefully.

  • Thanks. Good answer. I asked in the comments if I should change "Sith" to "Dark Jedi" but didn't get an answer. Someone changed it to "dark side force user" in the question body.
    – ermanen
    Feb 11, 2016 at 17:33

The answer depends on what time period you are talking about If you are talking about the Old Republic then I have no idea but if you are talking about the rule of two era then a Sith's training is only over when he kills his Master and takes on the mantle of Dark Lord Of The Sith.


There are two different periods of time in the training of the Force. As you can see in Episode I, the Force and the Council have been developed in a bureaucratic form of society, where there are a lot of rules and procedures, but when the Republic falls, there are no longer Council or procedures (for instance, Anakin is "too old" to be trained, while Luke is a lot older when he gets his training).

You can speculate that before the fall, Jedi recieve a formal graduation, tests and certifications, while after you only train to swing a saber and go fight knowing almost nothing about the Force. While Darth Maul obviously received a lot of training, Anakin become a Sith lord only by raising from death. Master Yoda trained and taught for hundreds of years, while Luke become a Jedi just because there were no other available candidates.


I think it's quite simple. You are ready to become a Jedi or Sith once you are no longer susceptible to being swayed by the other side. That's why the Jedi council really never thought that Anakin Skywalker was ready - and it was proved right. Anakin was too proud to ever really be a Jedi. And Ben hasn't really felt enough shameful emotion to be truly dark. He always feels unworthy but it always trying to prove that he is. The shame he will feel upon having lost the battle with an albeit talented but untrained opponent will cause his anger to grow to high levels, that's why Snoke says he's ready to finish the training.

  • you are truly no longer susceptible to being swayed by the other side I disagree, Vader himself was swayed back to the light side. To say he was not a Jedi master ie ready (albeit dark side) would be inaccurate. Dec 21, 2015 at 20:42
  • That was a very last minute change of heart before death...it happens, and shows he still had a streak of light...very yin yang
    – Escoce
    Dec 21, 2015 at 21:11
  • Keep in mind that decision is almost never about skills. It's about being ready.
    – Escoce
    Dec 21, 2015 at 21:12
  • 1
    Tons of Jedi fell to the Dark Side. Dooku, for example.
    – Wad Cheber
    Jan 6, 2016 at 6:58
  • Doodoo answer. Thank you come again. Mar 1, 2016 at 11:42

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