51

It's been a while since I've re-read the Dune books, but I remember the Bene Gesserit were upset with Jessica because she was ordered to bear only female children. The long range plan was to breed one of her daughters with Feyd Harkonnen line to produce the Kwisatz Haderach.

And, of course, if you're familiar with Dune, you know how well that worked. We know the Sisterhood could not control Paul, and we don't know whether they could have controlled the Kwisatz Haderach if he had been born when they expected.

Other than the Bene Gesserit not being able to control Paul, was he, as the Kwisatz Haderach, what they expected? How was he different than the person they intended to produce or create?

10 Answers 10

47

What the Bene Gesserit sought was a man who could see far into the future, and predict the course that needed to be taken to achieve outcomes beneficial to the Bene Gesserit order.

In a way, that is exactly what they obtained.

However, the Bene Gesserits were blinded by their own arrogance. They truly believe that they are wise enough to decide what is best for humanity, yet they weren't aware of the forces that loomed in the future.

When Paul, and later his son Leto II, saw what the possibilities of the future were, they recognized the disaster that lay on the paths that the Bene Gesserit would have taken, as well as all other paths besides the Golden Path that led to the eventual salvation of the human race.

The existence of the Golden Path itself, and the dangers it sought to avoid, were factors that the Bene Gesserit could not have planned on, and would have been an unforeseeable influence on the Kwisatz Haderach regardless of whether he was born as the Bene Gesserit intended.

  • 9
    Although Paul admitted he had not seen things that his son saw. Re the wisdom point, I'll add: Leto II had not only prescience but an enormous wealth of wisdom due to being a male Abomination, who had both male and female Other Memory. Unlike reverend mothers whose memory extends backwards into time LINEARLY (mother->mother->mother->..), Leto had mothers and fathers, which extends backwards in generations EXPONENTIALLY. If a reverend mother has, say, 1,000,00 lives from which to draw wisdom, Leto II had 2^1,000,000. There is no comparison. – Christopher Done Aug 27 '14 at 23:01
  • 9
    @ChristopherDone Exponential growth backwards assumes no inbreeding which is not true; ultimately this is limited by the size of the population. That said, he probably had about 60 ancestors in each generation to draw on rather than one. – Dale M Jul 22 '15 at 5:53
  • 1
    @ChristopherDone No. As you go back inbreeding will dominate. (1000 generations ago there was nowhere near 2^1000 people) – Taemyr Nov 24 '17 at 18:42
  • 2
    True. In fact, the whole power of Leto's memory is directly related to diversity of the gene pool. Regardless of the size of the population, you could still inbreed within a family over and over. So the best would be to join diverse families after they've had time to diverge. Taking this into account, I take back my claim that it's this drastic. He has at least 2x memories of a reverend mother. Anything beyond that is hard to attain. – Christopher Done Nov 24 '17 at 22:34
  • 2
    Tim Urban has a good visualization and discussion about just how many ancestors a person can have. You can map that pretty much directly to Leto's ancestry: waitbutwhy.com/2014/01/your-family-past-present-and-future.html – Sukotto Nov 25 '17 at 3:50
22

I think what they really wanted was someone like the Bashar Miles Teg (In Heretics and Chapterhouse) but with the Other memory and prescience of Leto II.

Miles was totally a creature of the BG and he knew how he was manipulated and accepted it for what he saw as the greater good.

Paul was different in that he saw the future that the Kwisatz Haderach would create and rejected it as something he couldn't accept.

Leto II made it very clear (in God Emperor) that what they would have gotten was someone like him, no matter which way they went.

16

This is not necessarily an opinion of mine, but an observation, of sorts.

You see, Paul was not perfect in his abilities. He was an incomplete version of what the B.G. hoped for which only added to their concerns. What is meant by this is that he was "trapped by his own prescience", also by his inability to bear the burdens on his mind, he was forced to make concessions. The longer that he waited to "disengage" the more finite his options became. Some examples of what I mean is when his first son, Leto II was murdered. At this point Muad'Dib followed his own path of revenge which only led to further divergence from the Golden Path. However, he still had the option at that point to do what Leto III (aka God Emperor) knew had to be done.

Upon a sand dune toward the end of Children of Dune, Leto and Muad'Dib have their brief discussion about their roles. Leto informs his father that he intends to take the Golden Path and is chided by his father for this. Knowing the suffering and sacrifices that his son would have to endure, this was his natural reaction.

However, Muad'Dib is then chided for not choosing the path. Accused of ignoring his purpose, the TRUE "terrible purpose" which is often mentioned.

Muad'Dib's shortcomings resulted from his indulgence in selfish love as opposed to the self-less, unconditional love that is the fuel for the Golden Path. By taking a bride of sorts and having his children, he was attempting to cheat his fate. Knowing deep within himself that he was never intended to enjoy those things, he indulged in them anyway, only to have them taken away.

We can clearly see in Leto that he had no love except for the love that he shared with Ghanima. It is noted in the books that Leto's transformation was allowed to finally reach its completion upon the death of his sister. For Leto II no longer had any emotional attachments to distract him from the path. We see also that when Leto II(III) finally opens his heart toward Hwi, he starts to become progressively careless. Then again, he was a hopeless romantic...

So yes, I think that the B.G. intended to achieve a prescient Bashar, but instead ended up with Paul whom was capable of much, but also incapable at the same time because of the 'gap' in his genetics. This is supported by the fact that Bashar Miles Teg gains his own KWisatz Haderach type powers prior to the end of Heretics of Dune. The B.G. were always wanting to flirt with the possibility of having a K.H. but not enjoying the true cost of having one in existence. (Remember that Miles was Atreides just the same as Ordade, Paul, and Leto I,II, & III!)

To end this comparison, I would like to also say that Leto III saw that necessity of ignoring his own possibility of demise to ensure that his actions remained selfless, whereas the actions of Paul were dictated by possible futures of his own death or those around him.

7

Like any self serving power, the Bene Gesserit intended to CONTROL the object of their machinations. They were victims of their own Hubris; classically so. Frank Herbert certainly had Greek tragedy in mind when he came up with Dune. The best laid plans, and all of that. The implication is that Paul is less docile than expected, and therefore less manageable when it comes to the agenda of the Bene Gesserit. Paul's relationship with Jessica is especially disturbing to the Bene Gesserit, as familial love is discouraged by the sisterhood. Dune is about heresy as much as it is about messianic themes. The Kwisatz Haderach was the result of a human plot to transcend humanity. The inability of Humans to predict the capabilities of Humans is a central theme of Dune. Deep stuff. The spice... I can smell it!

  • 1
    Thinking about safe AI, this actually brilliantly resonates with the earlier Butlerian Jihad (though not necessarily intentionally). The BG sought to create a transcendent AI (using breeding, rather than computers), and succeeded far beyond their wildest dreams, only to be consumed by it. However, unlike the earlier transcendent AIs, they actually managed to create something that cared about the future of humanity as a whole - a safe super-human intelligence. All in all, quite a lucky shot, even if it backfired towards many individual humans. – Luaan Sep 6 '17 at 10:53
7

I think the answer is far simpler. Paul had genetically everything it took to be the BG Kwisatz Haderach and essentially was. The issue was more political. By being born a generation too early, the marriage between house Harkonnen and House Atreides did not occur resulting in a War with far reaching political consequences for the BG. I agree with much of what is said above, however I believe the BG thought that from a political standpoint they could control a Kwisatz Haderach born of a union between House Harkonnen and Atreides. Whereas Paul was seen by them as a force born at the wrong time politically that could lead to the destruction of the Empire and all the houses. (Now, reading the rest of the novels...I have my doubts that the BG would have been in control even if it had gone to plan). I do believe they may have been correct, the beginning of the Golden Path may have gone a little smoother had a Harkonnen and Atreides union taken place.

  • 1
    It's not at all clear to me that the Golden Path was part of what the BG had even foreseen as a necessary thing, what Leto taught the universe was to expand with such ference and fear outward that the human race can never be totally dominated or brought to an end. The BG sat through Leto's manufacturing of this state of affairs with gritted teeth, and as seen in Heretics and Chapterhouse, the BG had lost their way anyway, and needed to find what they had, ironically, long since lost (their humanity and direction). – Christopher Done Nov 14 '15 at 9:10
2

If you have read all Dune book, especially the ones that finalize the saga you will know that

the Kwisatz Haderach is actually Duncan Idaho and his powers are quite different from those of Paul. Paul was a product of genetic selection, but Duncan was a product of genetic engineering. I guess the sisters were channeled to build the superhuman by Norma, actually for the same purpose of defeating Omnius.

The first books and the part that Paul plays is only a small act on a very big scene, and the reader is somehow mislead into thinking that Paul is the central piece, when is not.

  • 7
    I don't believe Duncan Idaho was the Kwisatz Haderach, but rather the last. Paul and Leto II are both also Kwisatz Haderach. Neither is Paul's part "small" (he is the one who set the stage to make the Golden Path possible, even though his vision of it was not as broad as Leto II's), nor are the readers "mislead" into thinking Paul is the central piece. He absolutely is the central piece... for the early parts of the tale, just as Leto II is the central piece after Paul steps aside. – Beofett Feb 22 '12 at 14:49
  • 1
    I agree in some aspects. THE Kwisatz Haderach was supposed to bend space and time, and Paul and Leto 2 are just at the level where they can perceive what will happen and not actually able of "bending" stuff. – Elzo Valugi Feb 22 '12 at 15:04
  • 5
    I don't believe anything in Frank Herbert's books indicated the Kwisatz Haderach was supposed to "bend space and time". He was supposed to be "the shortening of the way", whose combination of the abilities of a Reverend Mother, Mentat, and Guild Navigator would help guide humanity to make evolutionary leaps, but nothing about bending space and time. Keep in mind that the bulk of the material about Ghola Duncan Idaho's prescient abilities was written by Paul Herbert, not Frank, and was somewhat loosely based on Frank's notes (to an undetermined extent). – Beofett Feb 22 '12 at 15:30
  • 4
    Also note that both Paul and Leto II are capable of more than just perceiving what will happen. Both of them are able to determine what course of events will unfold by direct influence of action. Paul is able to avert his role in the upcoming Scattering by stepping off the Golden Path, to let Leto II take over. Leto II sacrifices, well, just about everything (his humanity, his life, his happiness, etc.) to ensure that the Golden Path actually unfolds. If either had acted differently, it would have directly impacted the future in ways they were fully aware of. – Beofett Feb 22 '12 at 15:36
  • 1
    It's better to ask the question asker whether they want canon or not. Frank had no mention of "bending time and space", whatever that means, in his novels. The fact is one author crafted a very specific vision of his universe, his son and coauthors merely adopted it, their writings and his cannot be considered the same. – Christopher Done Aug 27 '14 at 23:13
1

Going strictly by the premise of the question(s).

Other than the Bene Gesserit not being able to control Paul, was he, as the Kwisatz Haderach, what they expected? How was he different than the person they intended to produce or create?

  1. In their 90-generation breading program, and by their own calculation, they missed by a single generation.

    The Lady Jessica was ordered to produce an Atreides daughter. The plan was to inbreed this daughter with Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen, a nephew of the Baron Vladimir, with the high probability of a Kwisatz Haderach from that union. Instead, for reasons she confesses have never been completely clear to her, the concubine Lady Jessica defied her orders and bore a son.

    Dune Appendix III

  2. There is also the difference between Paul and Leto II, since, had the BG been successful they would have, again by their own numerical calculation, created one generation later the mind of Leto II God Emperor Of Dune, with devastating consequences for the sisterhood.

    Leto has taken over the Bene Gesserit's breeding program for himself, the same program that produced his father, the Kwisatz Haderach.

  3. If we take as cannon all books in the Dune saga we have an intriguing possibility that the BG plan was exactly as it was supposed to be, a plan within a plan of Norma Cenva. Which implies that Paul Atreides does not only differ from what the BG expected, but is exactly what Norma Cenva intended.

0

The Kwisatz Haderach is a man, and a woman. Both are required to make the change. This is the subtext Herbert is driving at with the multiplicity of characters who possess Kwisatz Haderach - like qualities.

Jessica understands the importance, and sacredness of love. Paul understands the role of courage, free will, and how crucial it is to be able to shape your own destiny. Alia is feminine rage in some respects. She loses her mind not because she was conceived as "abomination", but because Paul abandons his responsibilities - and leaves her to carry them alone. She functions much like his mirror. "See what you have done." He does the same for her. "See what you've become" (what you might become, depending on whether you're examining this from a time-vision perspective).

It is no coincidence that Ghanima and Leto are fraternal twins. They are a partnership. The male and female dynamics that play throughout the Dune series consistently emphasize the importance of mutual respect and equality between the genders. Chani is Muad'Ib's love - but she is not his equal. That is part of where he went wrong. Ghanima and Leto embody and illustrate what marriage could look like. If men and women "metaphorically" united in love relationships in that way.

This is the significance of "other memory", and the role it plays in the Bene Gesserit breeding program. This is a metaphor. "We women cannot see into your minds." The Kwisatz Haderach is too great a load for any one man - or woman - to carry. That is part of Paul's point in abandoning the Golden Path. It takes both.

  • 1
    This is interesting but doesn't answer the question asked ("How is paul different from what the Bene Gesserit expected") – Valorum Nov 15 '14 at 23:10
0

I think the primary difference in intent was that Paul was both Kwisatz Haderach AND Muad'Dib. The BG were only looking for the Kwisatz Haderach, which was, as was mentioned much more intelligently above, Leto III.

Had a generation passed, the Muad'Dib would have remained legend, and the Kwisatz Haderach would have ruled as intended.

  • 1
    Many of Paul's actions, his training & opportunities were based on the possibility, and even his choice of the name 'Muad'dib' was based on his prescient visions; had he not been a Kwisatz Haderach, it's unlikely he would have ever become 'Muad'Dib', either. Also, Muad'dib (or Paul Muad'dib, as he chose to be called) was a name, not a title; had he not chosen it based upon his visions, it's unlikely anyone else would have. – K-H-W Feb 1 '15 at 19:49
-2

When Paul chose to be Maudib he did so with a very limited amount of prescience. That explains why he needs to drink the water of life. I think Herbert was trying to say that, as intelligent and planning as females can be, they need the male counter part in order to make the passionless decisions. This is in no way a belittling or limiting of the gender. Paul was uncontrollable because he still had the emotional baggage that he carried due to the war. That is why he is a failed KH. Leto II was uncontrollable because he saw the actions that preceded him and new what the politics where. Had Paul not been a mutation he would have only been Maudib the legend

  • 1
    I'm not seeing how this answers the question asked. – Valorum Oct 22 '15 at 7:53
  • I have to agree with Richard and add that it is all opinion based and not at all supported. – Tango Oct 22 '15 at 16:32

Your Answer

By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.