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Before people get their backs up about the word "allegory" because of Tolkien's perceived dislike of it based on that particular quote, feel free to replace the world "allegory" with "applicability". I believe that Tolkien was simply making a semantic distinction in that quote, and there are many other instances of him admitting to the use of allegory.


In the Extended Edition of The Return of the King, at around the 34 minute mark, Theoden is informed by Gandalf that Pippin saw in the Palantir of Orthanc Sauron's plan to invade Gondor, and Gandalf tells him Rohan must prepare to send help. Theoden refuses, saying:

Tell me. Why should we ride to the aid of those who did not come to ours?

Of course, later on in the movie he has a change of heart, but in the movie at least (I haven't yet got round to reading the books), this initial refusal seems like a very significant moment.

Out of universe, we know that Tolkien was a product of the First World War and that it affected him significantly, so is there any material to indicate that Theoden's refusal was ever intended as an allegory for anything? What additional context, if any, do the books and Tolkien's letters add to this scene?

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    Once again, there is no point asking for the deeper meaning here because this event did not happen in the books. Really you should read those first. Jun 29, 2020 at 19:16
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    whenever asking about allegory and LoTR, it's best to remember the words of the good professor Tolkien himself regarding allegory: "it has, in the intention of the author: NONE....I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations"
    – NKCampbell
    Jun 29, 2020 at 19:48
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    @NKCampbell - OP is asking about an even that happened in the films, not the books though. So Tolkien's supposed hatred of allegory doesn't apply here.
    – Valorum
    Jun 29, 2020 at 20:23
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    good point @Valorum - then there will be no letters or additional material from Tolkien that can address it (which is what the question asked for) so that's my VTC
    – NKCampbell
    Jun 29, 2020 at 20:44
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    @NKCampbell - That's a decent answer though, not a reason to vote to close. A great answer would also address what the scene meant to Boyens and Jackson, whether they considered it an allegory for something.
    – Valorum
    Jun 29, 2020 at 20:46

2 Answers 2

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+500

In the books/canon, this never happened.

Simply because there was no open war between Rohan and Saruman until the point where Gandalf freed Theoden from Wormstongue's influence. Only Eomer was fighting orc raids on his own, but this wasn't sanctioned by the King and it was just skirmishes, like when Eomer accidentally saves Merry and Pippin from the orcs.

At the point when Gandalf frees Theoden, Saurman tries to strike as quick as possible before Rohan can gather its armies, which were scattered at that point. There wasn't even enough time for Rohan to gather its own armies when that happened. Gandalf manages to find one such army, in the books lead by someone called Erkenbrand (in the movie I think it was Eomer's army), then have had them ride to the Hornburg, arriving just in time to save the day, otherwise that battle would have been lost.

So requesting aid from Gondor would just have been silly, Gondor would never have made it in time even if they had responded. And if Rohan didn't even ask for help, why would Theoden be angry at them for not coming to their aid? That makes no sense.

In the books, Theoden never hesitates to help Gondor. From what I recall, he is already gathering all his armies at Dunharrow even before Gondor calls for help. And even if he didn't care for Gondor, it would still make perfect sense to aid them - if Gondor falls, Rohan will be next.

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  • The war started slightly earlier. It was how Theoden’s son Theodred died, in February 25 of that year, while Gandalf’s intervention was March 2nd. Jul 3, 2020 at 16:50
  • @suchiuomizu That's the movie too I believe - Theodred's death starting a war? I don't remember if Theoden was even able to make the connection between orcs and Saruman. Regardless, as long as Wormstongue held sway, Theoden was advised not to act.
    – Amarth
    Jul 3, 2020 at 19:13
  • @Amarth --- It's the book. Look at the Tale of Years in Appendix B. There is a whole chapter on the battles of the Fords of Isen in the Unfinished Tales. Jul 3, 2020 at 20:13
  • @IanThompson Regardless, Gondor wouldn't have made it in time to the battle of the Hornburg even if Rohan had sent for help at the day of Theodred's death.
    – Amarth
    Jul 3, 2020 at 20:19
  • @Amarth --- I never suggested that they would. Jul 3, 2020 at 20:20
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It is allegory for human nature. Somebody has to be "a bigger man", swallow his pride and do what is right, despite all the personal misgivings. It is a mark of greatness to do that and change your mind for the greater good.

Although, the point of the scene is not that he changed his mind. The point is that he has already made a decision (it being "We will go there and help them, only they need to ask first, because I do have my pride.") and was just airing his grievances ("We asked for help from them before, but they didn't answer. We will help them but jeez!, they suck, right?"). Or something like that.

As for allegory with the World War I, you can see it with England and France. Or the other dozen other countries which were uncertain allies with complicated history of fighting and wars between each other before. They despised each other, they hated them in some ways.

"Remember 200 years ago when they took our land? Remember when we asked them for help 10 years ago and they did nothing? And now they ask for help according to the same contract? What should we do, help them?! It IS in our best interest to help them, but they DID act like a-holes before."

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    Since Tolkien didn't write this part, what has WW1 to do with anything? Are you saying that Peter Jackson fought in WW1?
    – Amarth
    Jul 3, 2020 at 14:19
  • No, but Saruman did fight in World War II. :)
    – jo1storm
    Jul 3, 2020 at 16:34

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