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Did Obi-Wan ever identify who erased the Kamino system from the Jedi Archives?

Was is Palpatine? Was it Count Dooku?

We know that Sifo-Dyas was the Jedi who supposedly ordered the Clone Army and that he is dead but did he also erase the Kamino system from the Archives?

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    On a side note, do we know that Sifo-Dyas actually ordered the clones? Perhaps that was also done by either Palpatine or Dooku. – Michael Todd Apr 25 '11 at 20:40
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    @Michael Todd Very good point especially since no one from Kamino ever met Sifo-Dyas in person. – Chris_O Apr 25 '11 at 20:46
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    Wouldn't it be more convenient to pretend that this was an insignificant event that doesn't really require an explanation? Certainly it doesn't merit the 45 minutes of pod racing time. Sorry. Color me bitter. Edit: fantastic question though. Thanks for asking and thanks for all the good, if conflicting answers. – user20179 Feb 20 '13 at 4:40

12 Answers 12

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Palpatine.

Sifo-Dyas wasn't behind creation of Clone Army because he never even mentioned it in front of the Jedi council. Obi-Wan got misleading information about that. The Lost Missions (Unfinished season 6 of Star Wars: The Clone Wars TV series) supports this fact.

According to Star Wars: The Clone Wars (Season 2), the Jedi Archives can only be manipulated using The Force: There weren't any bad Jedi to erase Kamino from the Jedi Archives without the permission of the Jedi Council. Count Dooku had already left the Jedi Order before becoming a Sith apprentice, and he didn't know anything about the Clone Army before meeting Palpatine (Darth Plagueis novel).

There was only one Sith, Palpatine, who had access to The Jedi Temple. So, clearly, Palpatine was behind all these things.

Palpatine needed the Clone Army to execute order 66 and beat the Jedi Order. So, he ordered it & erased the Kamino system from the Jedi Archives.

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    Except that Dooku was a Jedi at one point and would have had access to the library to change the records. – Xantec Apr 25 '11 at 21:33
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    According to LucasFilm Timeline, Count Dooku became sith few years prior to 22 BBY (Before Battle of Yavin) & Clone Army was ordered in 32 BBY. In 32 BBY, Count Dooku wasn't motivated by Palpatine. So, - like Anakin - Count Dooku was good at that time. – Lobo Apr 25 '11 at 22:15
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    That assumes that Kamino was removed from the library at the same time (relatively) that the clones were ordered. – Xantec Apr 25 '11 at 22:34
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    In the movie, Obi-wan says that he believed Sifo-dyas to already be dead at the time the army would have been requested. – Sydenam Oct 9 '11 at 13:50
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    @SS-3.1415926535897932384626433 But the man who recruited Jango Fett as the clone template was Tyranus (aka, Count Dooku. See Episode 2). If what you said were true, then there is a major error in the LucasFilm Timeline. – USFBS Jun 8 '15 at 17:19
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According to wookieepedia It was Dooku :

After the death of Sifo-Dyas, Dooku successfully erased Kamino, Dromund, Dagobah, and thirty-five other star systems from the Jedi Archives, despite no longer being a Jedi himself.

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  • The article seem to cite Labyrinth of Evil as the source, if anybody could confirm that, it would be welcome. – DavRob60 Sep 22 '11 at 16:52
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    Labyrinth of Evil only mentions the deletion of Kamino, not any of the others. – Ras Morthil Jun 13 '15 at 15:49
  • +1 for good job citing your source. Some elaboration would be helpful but good answer. – RedCaio Nov 11 '15 at 3:33
  • Why would any of these other systems have been erased? To give the Sith and other evil allies some good hiding places? – maguirenumber6 Feb 18 '16 at 15:54
  • It seems I have an answer : scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/8656/… – maguirenumber6 Sep 12 '16 at 3:22
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Actually, I think Dooku did it before completely turning the dark side. Only a Jedi could alter the archive.

EDIT: I found a reference to this in "Labyrinth of Evil" from James Luceno. It is from a conversation between Yoda and Obi-Wan about the murder of Sifo-Dyas(page 98/532 in my ebook)

A theory I have--nothing more. Murder, Dooku committed. Then, from the Jedi archives erased Kamino, he did. Of that tampering, proof Master Jocasta Nu found--proof of Dooku's action, though well concealed it was.

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    Another article in the Wookiepedia says that Dooku did this in spite of not being a Jedi. (Powerful is the dark side!) – Tango Jan 7 '12 at 5:09
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    This has a canon reference, unlike the previously approved answer. I think this one should be put as the correct one. – jacen.garriss Nov 17 '13 at 13:51
  • @jacen.garriss: at the time I answered the question, I could not remember which book it was. 2 years later, at last, I found it :) – Johann Blais Nov 18 '13 at 17:42
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    @jacen.garriss: this reference is NOT canon anymore, now that Disney has removed most of the EU, including "Labyrinth of Evil", from the new canon moving forward. – Remy Lebeau Apr 23 '15 at 3:59
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Now that Darth Plaguies book has been written, this is even less clear. Dooku appears to leave the Jedi order, prior to becoming a sith apprentice. And he did not have any knowledge of the clone army or anything, so he had no reason to erase anything. And I doubt he had access to the jedi temple after he left the order. So I don't think it could have been him. Little is known about Sifo Dyas' activities. But he told Dooku in Darth Plaguies book that he was one step ahead.... What he meant by that, not sure, but I surmise it is related to the clone army. My best guess is it was Sifo Dyas he erased Kamino. He had access, and was aware of the reasoning to erase it. Dooku simply did know until he was already gone from the order.

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  • The Lost Missions show that Sifo Dyas wasn't behind creation of the Clone Army. – Lobo Apr 23 '15 at 3:26
  • As I said in a comment on SS-3's answer, Dooku did not actually leave the Jedi Order in Darth Plagueis, he just talked about his plans to do so with Palpatine, but he might have waited a while for strategic reasons...and Labyrinth of Evil, which says specifically that Dooku did erase Kamino from the archives immediately before leaving the Order, was written by the same author. – Hypnosifl Feb 18 '16 at 14:06
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http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sifo-Dyas It was Dooku under the command of Sidious.

Sifo-Dyas approached the Kaminoans and requested a clone army for the Republic. With the funds provided by Damask Holdings despite the fact that Hego Damask recently died, Sifo-Dyas paid the Kaminoans. But little did he know that Sidious and Dooku had learned of this and ensured the steps to his demise. Erasing all records of Kamino from the Jedi Archives, the final test provided to Dooku was to murder his old friend. Executing the man, Dooku gained full control of the project for the Sith, using Sifo-Dyas as a cover.

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I dont think it was Count Dooku. He seemed very surprised when the Clone army appeared the first time on Geonosis.

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  • According to another response, Dooku erased several systems. What was the motivation? Probably to cover up his tracks, but the real target could have been any of those systems. I'm not familiar enough with canon like others here, but I can think of three explanations. First, Dooku was ordered to erase them. Second, Sifo Dyas discovered the deletions and took advantage of it. Three, a happy coincidence (unlikely, but I have to include it). – Generic Geek May 10 '15 at 16:50
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I don't think the answer has been given in the current Disney canon, but in Legends, chapter 22 of the novel Labyrinth of Evil revealed it was Dooku:

And so with the murder of Sifo-Dyas, Dooku had embraced the dark side fully, and Sidious had conferred on him the title Darth Tyranus. His final act before leaving the Jedi order was to erase all mentions of Kamino from the Jedi archives. Then, as Tyranus, he had found Fett on Bogg 4; had instructed the Mandalorian to deliver himself to Kamino; and had arranged for payments to be made to the cloners through circuitous routes...

This section of the wookieepedia article on Labyrinth of Evil author James Luceno indicates he consulted with Lucas during the writing process:

Luceno was given the first draft of Revenge of the Sith's script and was continually kept updated on revisions it underwent until such time as he was required to submit Labyrinth of Evil's manuscript. He additionally read Matthew Stover's novelization of the film as it was being written. Luceno had also been tasked with writing the reference book Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith The Visual Dictionary, and accordingly had access to film stills and props. He spoke frequently with Sue Rostoni, Lucas Licensing editor Jonathan W. Rinzler, and Episode III Set Diarist Pablo Hidalgo, all of whom were frequently viewing rough cuts of the movie.[5] Luceno was in close contact with George Lucas during the writing process and was able to ask him questions about certain characters.[8] Lucas was unable to resolve certain plot points from Attack of the Clones or provide backstory on some of Revenge of the Sith's characters and events; those jobs fell to Luceno.[5] The condition that he would create a backstory for the character of General Grievous was essential to Luceno receiving the contract for the book, and Lucas provided him with some information that helped him expand and flesh out Grievous's character.[8]

So, I think we can infer that either Lucas told him this plot point or that it was one of the plot issues Lucas was "unable to resolve" himself and left it to Luceno to come up with his own explanation.

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Whomever directly did it aside, we know Sidious was behind it in some way. The clones were programmed with Order 66, and he needed to have that happen for his plan to work. Now, that being said, Jango said he was hired to be the template by Tyrannus, aka Dooku, so we know Dooku was part of it. However, Dooku was surprised by the army, but I think his surprise is how quickly they arrived at Geonosis, not the army's creation.

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Basically, I think Dooku went to Kamino posing as Sifo-dyas and ordered a clone army, but Sidious and Dooku knew that that clones would be under their control because they were being cloned from Jango Fett. Jango was the bounty hunter who was being employed by Dooku and so when Dooku acted surprised in front of everyone else about the clone army he was simply covering up the truth just in case Viceroy Gunray or anyone else told the Jedi, thus foiling their plans. I think this because in Revenge of the Sith, Order 66 was sent out and the Clones then turned because they were working for Dooku and therefore Sidious.

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    Order 66 wasn't because they were working for Dooku. It was because they had a number of contingency plans in place for any problem, and were simply following orders. – The Fallen Aug 14 '13 at 13:38
  • The clones weren't working "for" Dooku or Sidious. They were soldiers bred for loyalty to the Republic. As Papaltine/Sidious was the leader of the Republic-turned-Empire, they follow the orders issued. – phantom42 Aug 14 '13 at 14:00
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It was Lord Tyranus who erased the archives. To become a sith his final test was to murder his friend which he did but after he placed the order for the clone army. He used Jango Fett as a template as Jango Fett apparently was more than equal to his own former padawan despite not being force sensitive. The order 66 was not just a failsafe control system but the ultimate deception in the plan to simultaneously wipe out the jedi order in the midst of the chaos that was the clone wars. Darth Sidious planned all of this controlling both droid and clone armies and at the perfect time activated order 66, which was the attempt on his life by the jedi order(mace windu). With that he could also convince the senate that the jedi were mounting an insurrection by trying to assassinate the chancellor which again was by Lord Sidious's design Also he used this opportunity to finally turn Lord Vader to the dark side. LOL Mace Windu was right to say their ability to use the force was diminished as Lord Sidious set this all up in their faces and still they could not see let alone use the force .

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I think with the information at hand, we can safely call this one a mystery, or an unresolved sub-plot (pseudo plot maybe). So the primary suspects are

1 Sifo Dyas 2 Count Dooku 3 Sheev Palpatine

Obviously Obi Wan knew Sifo Dyas or at least knew of him (to relay news of his passing to the Kaminoans) Lama Su certainly seemed to have had personal dealings with Sifo Dyas, but was the Sifo Dyas Obi Wan knew (or knew of) the same as the one Lama Su had dealings with? We'll never know. It's possible another person travelled to Kamino under the identity of Sifo Dyas, was this connected to the real Sifo Dyas' death? again, a mystery.

While the timeline for Dooku places him as a Sith prior to the order for a clone army being placed with the Kaminoans, it's obvious he had some involvement with the project, at least peripherally, as Jango Fett states he was recruited "by a man named Tyrannus" (Darth Tyrannus is the Sith name of Count Dooku), if we're to take Fett at his word, Count Dooku was involved at least peripherally in the recruiting of an individual to be cloned, making him at the very least aware of the project.

His surprise at the appearance of the clone army could be that HE knew they existed, but he didn't know the Jedi and the republic also knew, so he was surprised by the fact the Jedi/ Republic had discovered and recruited the clone forces, more than the fact they existed.

It's also possible there was some overlap in terms of Dooku's involvement with both the Jedi order, and the Sith, as of the beginning of Ep II, Dooku is considered above suspicion by the Jedi order, specifically for the attempts on Padme Amidala's life, presumably when he left the Jedi order, he was given the equivalent of an honorable discharge, however, while still a part of the Jedi order, it's not inconceivable that he had already become involved with the Sith and was operating maliciously within the Jedi order in secret. Presumably no evidence of his espionage was uncovered, allowing him to leave the Jedi order with his reputation intact, and held in some esteem by the Council of the order itself.

Given the known connection between Fett and Dooku, (they'd clearly met prior to their on-screen meeting on Geonosis) it's strongly implied that Dooku was indeed behind the attempts on Padme Amidala's life, using Fett as an intermediary (who in turn used Zam Wessel).

Dooku had both direct access to the Jedi temple and archives (Palpatine did not), AND prior knowledge of the cloning project itself, making him a very strong suspect indeed for the record tampering, however, whether acting as the Jedi Dooku, or the Sith Tyrannus, it's highly unlikely that his involvement occurred without either the knowledge or complicity of Sheev Palpatine aka Darth Sidious.

As a Sith apprentice, Dooku/ Tyrannus would be tasked with carrying out the orders of the Master Sith, it would appear that initiative is not encouraged in Sith circles, so if we are to assume that Dooku/ Tyrannus was involved or responsible (a fairly safe assumption) it logically follows that he was acting on the orders or instructions of Palpatine/ Sidious.

I'd suggest that the plan itself most likely originated from Palpatine/ Sidious, with the actual enacting of it being done by Dooku/ Tyrannus, using recruited assistants, such as Jango Fett.

The bigger question is why? If Palpatine intended to subvert the Republic and impose his own military Empire in it's place, he'd require a military to enforce that transition, he'd also require it to be kept under wraps, so as to not reveal his hand too soon, he'd also require a military crisis to justify the unveiling of said military without causing alarm and the suspension of existing checks and balances within the Galactic senate limiting the powers of the Chancellor, all of which he achieved (with Dooku's aid).

So I think it's safe to assume it's Dooku's fingerprints left at the crime scene, but Palpatine was the brains and driving force behind the whole thing. Would it be enough to get a conviction in a court? Well, given the Republic court's track record with Nute Gunray, it seems unlikely.

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    I would suggest reformatting your answer to improve readability. Also embed a few links in the text to support your answer. – Moogle Feb 18 '16 at 13:28
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It was Dooku, everything adds up to him. He had to erase Kamino from the archives and kill Sifo-Dyas as his pledge to Palpatine.

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    Dooku having reason to erase Kamino from the archives is not the same as proving he did it. – phantom42 Feb 19 '13 at 19:30

protected by Möoz Jan 12 '18 at 3:07

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