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Just wondering if Durin's Bane was under orders from Sauron when he fought Gandalf and if Sauron would have the power to control a Balrog?
Sauron did have servants in Moria but if the Balrog served him why keep such a powerful force in there? Wouldn't it make more sense to have him leading his armies?

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    The balrog wasn't a servant so much as an ally. I believe both the Balrogs a and Sauron served Morgoth/Melkor but I'll leave the answer to someone much more familiar with Tolkien lore! – Liath Aug 4 '14 at 6:04
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  • Cool thanks KennyPeanuts – turinsbane Sep 6 '14 at 19:55
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    Sauron no more controls the Balrog than I control the lion sleeping on the other side of my house. It's more of an understanding that if I leave him alone, he'll do the same. I basically just keep the adjoining door closed and try not to wake him up. – Omegacron Sep 8 '14 at 13:58
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The only indication that Sauron had anything to do with the Balrog is given in a footnote to Appendix A in Return of the King:

Or released from prison; it may well be that it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron.

However, this doesn't imply any service or even awareness (and as both were Maiar in origin it's hard to imagine either serving the other), and it's difficult to reconcile with the Balrog's inactivity during the destruction of Eregion in the Second Age, when surely it would have been more useful:

The power of Moria endured throughout the Dark Years and the dominion of Sauron, for though Eregion was destroyed and the gates of Moria were shut, the halls of Khazad-dûm were too deep and strong and filled with a people too numerous and valiant for Sauron to conquer from without.

A Balrog would certainly have been useful during the battles at the end of the Third Age, but you're forgetting that Sauron's policy was one of secrecy for a long time, and it was only quite late that he went to open war: by which time the Balrog had already been destroyed.

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    All this is true but im pretty sure that the orcs in Moria were sent there by Sauron & the balrog allowed them to stay unlike the dwarves plus in the simarillion it says in the second age he united all Morgoths remaining servants on & under the ground under his government – turinsbane Aug 4 '14 at 8:30
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    @turinsbane - "in the second age he united all Morgoths remaining servants" - the Balrog didn't awake until Third Age 1980. – user8719 Aug 4 '14 at 8:45
  • @turinsbane Are you sure that Sauron sent those Orcs? Orcs tend to obey the strongest force they can find. Who's to say those weren't the beginnings of the Balrog's own army? – Zibbobz Aug 15 '14 at 14:47
  • @Zibbobz in unfinished tales the hunt for the ring it notes that Gollum was in great peril of discovery by the servants of Sauron that lurked in Moria – turinsbane Sep 6 '14 at 18:24
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    @JerrySchirmer - no, it didn't. Read your Tale of Years and Durins Folk - the Balrog was inactive between the Breaking of Thangorodrim and TA 1980 (and the Dwarves of Moria were certainly not wiped out in the Second Age). – user8719 Sep 6 '14 at 23:58
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I was browsing thru Appendix B in Lotr return of the king & i came across some interesting points."Third age 1980- A balrog appears in Moria & slays Durin VI. 2480- Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains.Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures." Theres no doubt in my mind that Sauron knew of Durins Banes existence by (probably far earlier ) the time the war of the ring started.

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Some servant, hiding underground doing nothing. Nah, he was Melkor's servant, just as Sauron was. That's why he ended up in Moria. With Melkor gone, that whole army kind of crept off and hid away. Smaug pillaged a bit and fell asleep inside a mountain. Balrogs crept underground and stayed there. Shelob too, found some cave and led pretty much a normal spider lifestyle (well, people instead of flies, but hey, she's big). Sauron's army, on the other hand - orcs, trolls, nazgul - was pretty active, since it had its commander. Although when Sauron bit the dust they basically did what Mekor's gang did. Seems the standard operation for these dark guys is lose it and scatter when their leader goes.

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    Shelob never served Melkor she was her own master & i don't think Smaug had even been born when Melkor was conquered. – turinsbane Sep 6 '14 at 18:48
  • Yep. I meant the kinds of creatures that served him, rather than individuals. Shelob was a descendant of Ungoliant (although Ungoliant was also arguably working WITH Melkor rather than FOR him). As for Smaug, he was a dragon - and even though he himself didn't work for Melkor, dragons were part of Melkor's horde. – Misha R Sep 9 '14 at 3:45
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No, the balrog was unrelated to Sauron.
Sauron no doubt knew about balrogs, having been a servant of Melkor, who created them. But from all that's shown in the LOTR there's no evidence he controlled the one in Moria, or even was in communication with it (the orcs seemed to hold the balrog as some sort of demi-god more than another asset of Sauron, it's not even sure whether the orcs of Moria were under control of Sauron or an independent group, left over from the distant past).

From the books, Moria was a dark and evil place all of its own, its hatred for the company the result of an ingrained hatred of everything else (and probably especially of dwarves), rather than aimed specifically at them.

  • Somewhat off-topic, but was Moria already lost (that is, inhabited by a Balrog and thousands of orcs/goblins) during the events of the Hobbit (and if so, was it known to anyone)? And, whether yes or no, why wasn't Gimli (a dwarf of royal blood) not aware of the loss of Moria to the forces of darkness? – TylerH Aug 4 '14 at 17:13
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    @TylerH Prior to, and during the events of the Hobbit, Moria was lost to orcs. Following the events of the Hobbit, Balin journeyed back to Moria in an attempt to reclaim it. His new colony lasted approximately five years before being once again overcome by orcs. It seems it was unknown to Gimli that Moria was again lost prior to the Fellowship entering the city. Also, this may be worthy of it's own question. – ssell Aug 4 '14 at 19:45
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    Melkor did not create the Balrogs, which were Maiar like Sauron. – Andres F. Aug 12 '14 at 1:40
  • @AndresF.: but he made them into what they were, corrupting them and taking their ability to take an arbitrary form. – Jerry Schirmer Sep 6 '14 at 20:29
  • @JerrySchirmer Sure, but that's some twisting of the phrase "created them", unless the OP was using a figure of speech (which would be acceptable!). – Andres F. Sep 7 '14 at 1:48
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Gandalf the Grey defeated Durin's Bane although he did die but Gandalf the White was easily overpowered by the Witch King who is not really as strong as Sauron so the possibility that Durin's Bane could be a servant of Sauron is there in terms of power but in the story there was no clear evidence that Durin's Bane was a servant of Sauron.

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    "gandalf the white was easily overpowered by the witch king" - this only happens in the movies; in the books there is no contest between them; the Witch-king rides in, meets Gandalf, and before they can even get to fight the Rohirrim arrive and the Witch-king departs. By the way - capitals, punctuation, sentences!!! – user8719 Jan 26 '15 at 13:22
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No The Balrog may have been an ally though because like Sauron Durins Bane once served Morgoth so undoubtedly they knew each other as Sauron was Morgoths top lieutenant & in The Silmarillion, Sauron once lead a group of Balrogs in an attack against the Noldor in Bereiland during the first age

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No. Durin's Bane and Sauron are both servants of Morgoth, but Durin's Bane doesn't serve Sauron.

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Not so much an answer, than to highlight a possible tactic in Sauron placing the Balrog in Moria.. and thus supporting the hypothesis of Sauron having influence over the Balrog..

Sauron certainly didn't rush his rebuilding after any defeats in the first two ages. I propose that, in a long calculated stratagem for victory in the Third Age, he would seek all potential retreats and strongholds for his enemies, be eradicated or controlled. He warped Saruman to his service via the palantir, having him build an army and, amongst other things, destroy Helm's Deep. What other stronghold, (ignoring Gondor) would have remained, but for the Balrog and the Goblins? Moria would have clearly been capable of hosting an extremely large number of refugees and retreated armies. Tens of thousands easily. Sauron would surely have considered this. I discount the Realms of the Elves as realistic similar retreats for various reasons, chiefly the difficulty of accepting Dwarves. With regard to why the Balrog got there after the War Of Wrath, and so long before the Third Age, is probably the main issue with this theory. Issued there by a clever and far sighted Sauron, guessing the future inevitability of Moria and the dwarves?

Anyway, yea. There you go. Conjecture I know, but from the strategic mind of Sauron the Great?! Surely a certainty... or not..

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Personally I think Durins Bane was not a servant of Bauron, I also believe that the orcs in Moria didn't come across the Balrog a lot I say this because when it emerges the orcs say "gash" which means fire in more of a surprised way, imo. If the orcs were servants of the Balrog I think they'd refer to him in a better way just my opinion, anyway getting back on track like you said if Durins Bane was a servant why would he keep him in a mountain which has no strategical value to him.

People tend to bring up the fact as well that their was black uruks of mordor were in Moria so durin banes and sauron must have an understanding I fully disagree if I remember rightly Gollum had recently entered Moria to avoid the Nazgul who were trying to capture him after Sauron realized Gollum could be good use to the good guys, I think the black uruks we see in Moria may have simply been hunting Gollum. Also Durins Bane doesn't really seem to care about anything going on in middle earth unless unwanted travelers entered his realm.

protected by Edlothiad Dec 19 '17 at 22:23

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