In the XIII chapter of the Silmarillion, Caranthir addressing Angrod says:

“But Caranthir, who loved not the sons of Finarfin, and was the harshest of the brothers and the most quick to anger, cried aloud: 'Yea more! Let not the sons of Finarfin run hither and thither with their tales to this Dark Elf in his caves! Who made them our spokesmen to deal with him? And though they be come indeed to Beleriand, let them not so swiftly forget that their father is a lord of the Noldor, though their mother be of other kin.”

But exactly with: "And though they be come indeed to Beleriand, let them not so swiftly forget that their father is a lord of the Noldor, though their mother be of other kin", what did he mean?

Why shouldn't Angrod have forgotten that his father was a lord of the Noldor?

  • 1
    Please clarify your specific problem or provide additional details to highlight exactly what you need. As it's currently written, it's hard to tell exactly what you're asking.
    – Community Bot
    Commented Aug 23, 2022 at 12:40
  • 1
    Do you perhaps mean "should" where you put "shouldn't"? Are you transcribing your thought from a language that uses double negatives?
    – Spencer
    Commented Aug 23, 2022 at 14:01
  • 1
    It reads to me like Caranthir is commenting that the sons of Finarfin are acting too comfortable, not remembering that their welcome is limited and conditional. Commented Aug 23, 2022 at 14:12
  • 1
    @CristobolPolychronopolis Sounds more like he's reminding them they are princes of the Noldor and not the servants of an Elf that didn't live in Valinor.
    – pboss3010
    Commented Aug 23, 2022 at 14:53
  • 2
    I don't have the book with me, is it possible you misinterpret ? Maybe Caranthir does not say that Angrod has forgotten that Finarfin (his father) is a Noldor, but rather that Angrod has forgotten that Eärwen (his mother) is not. He would essentially be saying that Finarfin's children, being not 100% Noldor, are not fit to negociate anything with Thingol in the name of all the Noldors. I'm not sure if it's that or rather like @pboss3010 said the fact that they should serve the interests of the Noldor rather than bow to Thingol and accept his "given lands"
    – gdelab
    Commented Aug 23, 2022 at 15:51

2 Answers 2


Looking at the remark in context, we can see what Caranthir is trying to say.

The context is that the Noldor have recently exiled themselves from Aman and returned to Middle-earth, to take the Silmarils from Morgoth. On arrival, they have already fought one major battle and Fëanor has died. They have realised, overlate, that they cannot defeat Morgoth (or at least that it won't be easy). So they have settled in for the long haul.

The Sons of Fëanor look down on the Sindar. They feel that the Sindar, not being Elves of the Light (i.e. never having seen the Two Trees), are inferior to the Noldor. And of course, as happens again and again, the Oath of Fëanor makes them make foolish decisions - they see whatever they want as the most important thing. So they expect their King Thingol to be grateful to them for having at least forced Morgoth back in battle. In particular, they expect to be able to form kingdoms of their own in the territory of Beleriand.

Not surprisingly Thingol is not so keen on this idea. He does not see why he should grant large chunks of his kingdom to the new arrivals from the West.

Now Angrod, like Caranthir, is a grandson of Finwë, so he is also a Noldo. But his mother was not a Noldo. The book says:

Alone of the princes of the Noldor those of Finarfin's [Angrod's father] house were suffered to pass within the confines of Doriath; for they could claim close kinship with King Thingol himself, since their mother was Eärwen of Alqualondë, Olwë's daughter [so she is Thingol's niece].

So Angrod, quite reasonably went to Thingol, as he was allowed to, and spoke diplomatically to the King. Thingol gave the Noldor permission to live in empty regions. But Caranthir is angry at him, because he is proud and unreasonable - he feels that the Exiles should be able to take whatever they want.

So he says that Angrod has gone over to the other side. He refers to Thingol contemptuously as "a Dark Elf in a cave" (which is false - Thingol has seen the Light of the Two Trees!). He says that Angrod has forgotten his father (who is a Noldo) and remembers only his mother (who is Thingol's niece). Of course he does not mean that Angrod has literally forgotten his father, only that Angrod is (he says) putting his mother's family over his father's.

  • thank you for this explanation :)
    – Armando
    Commented Aug 25, 2022 at 7:21
  • @Armando You're welcome. If you like the answer you can accept it by clicking on the "tick" icon that appears next to it.
    – user23087
    Commented Aug 25, 2022 at 9:25

Caranthir's father Feanor was the eldest son of Finwe, king of the Noldor in Aman. Feanor's mother Þerinde died and Finwe (uniquely in the histories!) remarried, to Indis the Vanya. Finarfin was a child of this second marriage; and his wife was a niece of Elu Thingol, king of Doriath, the principal power in Beleriand before the Noldor came.

Caranthir is saying that, if anyone is to negotiate with Thingol on behalf of the Noldor, it should be the senior branch of Noldorin royalty, not their cadet cousins who, though only quarter-Noldor by blood, owe them deference and loyalty.

Your Answer

By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service and acknowledge you have read our privacy policy.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.