Why would a slug thrower be more effective against a lightsaber/Jedi than a blaster?

Question

An answer to this question about gunpowder in the Star Wars universe includes the following quote saying that the shot from a slug thrower is not completely deflectable by a lightsaber. This seems to be listed as an advantage (over blasters) against lightsabers and Jedi:

For example, during the days of the Galactic Republic, mercenaries fearing an intervention by Jedi Knights used rapid-fire slugthrowers that were impossible to completely deflect, unlike blaster bolts.

This doesn't make much sense though. A slug, while maybe not as deflectable should be just as ineffective against a lightsaber as a blaster shot is, due to the nature of a lightsaber blade. That is, a blade made of plasma should simply vaporize the slug, should the slug manage to penetrate the containment field.

The weapon consisted of a blade of pure plasma emitted from the hilt and suspended in a force containment field. The field contained the immense heat of the plasma, protecting the wielder, and allowed the blade to keep its shape.

While a slug would seem to be more accurate than a blaster bolt (at least when used by a skilled marksman), I can't imagine that the slug would be faster than a bolt. Or if it is faster I wouldn't imagine it would be so fast that a Jedi would be unable to react with enough speed to block it, either with their saber or with the force. So what is the implied advantage of a slug thrower, versus a blaster, when used against a Jedi?

Answer 1

The real reason Slugs > Blasters against Jedi is really more straightforward than you'd think.

1. Blaster bolts can be reflected, slugs will be burned up by the blade. This removes a significant counterattack from the Jedi.
2. Slug-throwing weapons have a higher rate of fire. Jedi might seem impervious in the movies, but anyone can make a mistake. More projectiles = greater odds. Additionally, as others have pointed out, the higher rate of fire means more difficulty deflecting them.
3. Slugs probably travel much faster than blaster bolts. While there is some controversy about the exact speeds of blaster bolts, based on a visual summary of the films it is clear that they travel much slower than even the slowest bullets on earth do. Speed counts against Jedi.
4. Slugs are more difficult to see. While perhaps not always a total win against Jedi, less visibility is always an advantage.

Some additional notes. Why not always use slug weapons? Well, they have some drawbacks. For example, it is easier to shield against them. There exists various exotic metals in the SW universe like Durasteel. Durasteel is really only vulnerable to extremes of temperature like the blades of lightsabers and the bolts of blasters. The kinetic forces of slug weapons are simply not enough to do damage to it, even if the slugs are also made of Durasteel, they will simply bounce off. Slugs need to get very large before they can damage someone wearing Durasteel armor, and even then that damage would probably be concussive, not penetrative.

Jedi don't wear Durasteel, because it is heavy and would slow them down, and would offer little protection against their normal adversary, other lightsaber wielding foes.

Not only are they easy to shield against, they require non-compressible and heavy ammunition. Blasters work on energy and gas. In the SW universe both gas compression and energy storage are much more advanced than here on earth. This means that slug weapons are expensive to use on large scales, and require parts that need to be manufactured elsewhere rather than refilled on the planet they are being used on.

Consider the supply chain requirements for interplanetary war if you need to ship bullets between star systems? Forget about large shells.

Lastly, while less accurate, blasters also are easier to use and train in the use of. Slugthrowers are ballistic and therefore have drop-off at long ranges, are affected more by wind, and generally require more skill to use.

Answer 2

A slug, vaporized or not, possesses mass x travelling at speed y, which is where its power to harm comes from. To protect against it, what matters is that its trajectory is changed.

Discounting any magnetic effects that would quickly be countered with non-magnetic slugs, the wielder would need to exert a force equal to good old F=MA to redirect it back 180 degrees (twice that force, actually), and less than that to merely redirect it around the wielder harmlessly.

So the question seems to be: does a lightsaber exert force the way a real saber would? I think the answer from the behavior of cuts in the series is generally ”no” - they act as purely cutting blades, except against each other.

So why aren't the storm troopers using AK-47s? Because that wouldn't look nearly as cool.

Actually, having said that, that would look pretty cool.

Answer 3

Slugthrowers are any form of firearm. This includes everything from flintlocks to .50 cal machine guns.

Blasters typically fire a small number of bolts at relatively low speed, counting on the damage from each individual bolt to kill the target. Slugthrowers, on the other hand, do much less damage per shot. Those which would be used in combat against a Jedi would invariably be along the lines of a submachine gun or similar 'bullet hose'. In typical 3-round burst mode, that's 3 rounds per trigger pull.

Jedi can block a blaster bolt, or even several in quick succession. Against 2-3 enemies, each spitting out multiple rounds in short duration? Even Jedi speed can't keep up a defense.

It's a difference between quantity and quality. In general, blasters are better - they do far more damage. In specific circumstances, such as against a small number of Jedi, the quantity slugthrowers can put out is more effective.

Answer 4

Do the lightsabers actually vaporize the slugs, or would they instead melt the slugs? If they do indeed melt the slugs instead of vaporizing them, I don't think the lightsaber would nullify the momentum of the slugs' mass; the Jedi would have a wad of molten slugs flying at them.

Answer 5

A couple of things to note, going purely on canonical sources (not EU):

1. In "New Hope," the training scene with Luke and Obi-Wan aboard the Millennium Falcon establishes that Jedi do not have to be able to see attacks to defend against them. Luke, in fact, does better when Obi-Wan makes him rely on the Force in place of his own senses.

2. In "Empire," the scene where Luke senses Han and Leia in danger shows that Jedi perceptions can extend into the future.

3. In the "Ambush" episode of the Clone Wars cartoon, Yoda uses the Force to stops a large number of falling objects at once. We can't be sure since we only have the trailer to go on, but Rey appears to do a similar trick with rock chips in "Last Jedi."

Taken together, these would suggest that a skilled Jedi could stop a shotgun blast dead in the air. Precognition to anticipate the attack, plus the ability to "grab" many objects at once, should do the trick. No lightsaber needed.

Supporting this is the fact that Order 66 was carried out with blasters, not slugthrowers. If slugthrowers were in fact effective anti-Jedi weapons, this would have been the perfect time to use them. Palpatine was very familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of Jedi. He had been plotting this attack for years. He could easily have armed the clone troopers with slugthrowers. He didn't, which strongly suggests that they would not have been useful (or at least no more useful than blasters).

Answer 6

I would speculate that slugs are effective only because Jedi are typically not expecting them.

The problem with using physical objects against Jedi is that properly trained Jedi can exert very powerful telekinesis--certainly strong enough to push slugs woefully far off target. Since blaster bolts are mostly energy, they are apparently not subject to the Jedi's telekinesis abilities. Thus, even against Jedi, blasters are superior weapons.

However, since blasters are widespread and slug-throwers are not, most Jedi apparently haven't trained to use telekinetic powers to protect themselves. Thus, they are effective simply by virtue of being surprising. If they became widespread, they would lose both their surprise value and their effectiveness.

A few other details: slugs should be less accurate than blasters, given that firing a slug causes recoil, and gravity (and wind) affects the slug. Also, although one does need to conserve kinetic energy when "blocking" slugs, the lightsaber could vaporize the slug into two vapor streams that went on either side of the lightsaber blade, both of which avoided the Jedi. This need not require the Jedi to exert much force. The problem would be the rate of arrival of the slugs; one needs time to move the blade to block multiple slugs. (In general, one could position the blade to catch the first two slugs, but then would have to move it to catch the third.)

Answer 7

Besides the points listed already by other answers, there is one main difference. Using a blaster against a Jedi is giving him another weapon, that is if he can reflect your blaster bolts. With a slug thrower any deflections are vapourised, and thus cannot harm you.

Answer 8

This argument is invalid for a reason. If you're talking about firearms then you're talking about the Star Wars EU. In the books Obi Wan easily deflects rounds from a Gatling Gauntlet, not with his light saber, but with a simple force shield. Bullets have mass, therefore it is easy to block them by surrounding yourself with the force. Even against non force users bullets aren't very effective, because force field technology is cheap and common. That's why firearms were phased out and replaced with blasters, which don't fire lasers, but a plasma bolt. Although bullets can kill a Jedi, it is always because the Jedi is taken by surprise.

Answer 9

I've looked at everyone one of your comments and there's one thing that is never mentioned, recoil. I've looked at videos of blasters being fired and the recoil on the weapons doesn't seem that bad. However with "slug throwers" there is usually a lot of recoil that must be dealt with, which is probably one of the reasons behind burst firing. However, in the movies and cartoons you repeatedly see users (mostly clonetroopers) firing rapidly from the hip or shoulder height with fairly good accuracy. Why I'm bringing up recoil is because it causes the bullets to spread around an area more. If the plasma rounds from blasters are not affected by normal ballistics like a bullets would, and would always shoot straight along with little to no recoil from the gun then the spread would be significantly less than that of a slugthrower. This accuracy combined with the other factors already noted could be why jedi are able to deflect blaster bolts effectively. Slugthrowers with high rates of fire and more recoil would be much more random in trajectory and would have a much wider spread, so a jedi would have a harder time predicting where the path of the bullets.

Answer 10

Think about it as a difference in projectile purpose.

A bolt from a blaster is meant to burn through an object (as stated before increase the heat of whatever is attempting to stop it)

A bullet is meant to penetrate an object and flatten causing internal damage and to drain the fluid of the bodys hydraulic system.

A lightsaber blade and a blaster bolt are made of matter in similar states, so if one interacts with another they can repel (bouncing a ball off a hard surface; matter in like states interacting with one another)

A lightsaber blade and a "slug" are made of matter in different states. If one were to fire something in a small caliber (9mm .45 .50 BMG) it would be similar to throwing Jupiter into the Sun (addition of substantial mass, vaporization and inclusion into plasma stream).

Now if we were able to redefine the term "slug" as a large bore lead projectile fired at high velocity (large bore meaning larger in diameter than the blade of a lightsaber). Then the answer to this question becomes obvious.

Other than constant use of the force to move a heavy object travelling at high velocity (which unless you were very powerful in the force would be very straining). It would be impossible for a Jedi to defend themselves, without using some kind of shield array.

On a side note, just to throw a science monkey wrench into the works. Plasma (contained or not) is incapable of moving slower than a solid projectile. We currently have "un-contained" plasma weapons in use in the militaries of the world and they travel at thousands of feet per second.

Answer 11

This is just a crazy dream of mine...

Imagine being a Jedi accustomed to foes armed with blasters, which fire a really hot bubble of plasma at a slower velocity than a slug made of some sort of ferrous projectile.

The Force allows you to react to the incoming threat, but while the slower firing and moving blaster bolt is easy enough to react to, it's much harder to react to a burst of up to a dozen high-velocity projectiles from a single weapon at close range. While you can visualize and focus on the path of a few bolts of searing hot gas as they approach you, the salvo of solid projectiles is slightly less obvious and harder to see coming. From using your lightsaber to deflect a few incoming objects that are more apparent to your force-sensitive nature, you now not only have to focus on a dozen or so little metal pieces of up-yours which are travelling at higher speed, but you also have to focus on how they're going to be affected by gravity and how they will be intercepting you and most of all, how many dozens to hundreds of these objects which may be flung at you within a short period of time. It's not as though it's not possible, but it certainly is alot more tiring...

Answer 12

I am inclined to suggest that More Dakka applies here. The slug throwers sound like a so-so idea personally, but enough shooters and they can't all be blocked. Better would be blunderbusses at 30 feet. You can't block a blast area much wider than your blade moving faster than you can move the blade.

Answer 13

I guess I'll post something. Attempting to block a slug with a lightsaber would result in said slug being vaporized. Having a cloud of superheated vapor in your face is not exactly good for you (you'd end up with hot vapor in your lungs and organs, burning them up). Not only that, but when an object is vaporized, the vapor is usually explosively released, turning the bullet into a 20mm grenade going off a foot in front of your face (exaggeration, but you get the point). This gets even worse when the slugs are of higher caliber or are speciality rounds. A high explosive round would not only vaporize, but would also ignite the explosive, resulting in the vapor being pushed all around you in a cloud.

Answer 14

A speeding bullet is useless against even an ambushed, unarmed Jedi.

It is not possible to assassinate a Jedi without use of the Dark Side. They always see you coming, unless their clairvoyance is somehow neutralized by the Dark Side. General Order 66 would not have been successful had it not had the benefit of a Sith Lord shielding it. Every Jedi eventually knew what was coming before it occurred, but it was too late.

If you could somehow sneak up on a Jedi with a firearm, before the hammer fell, the barrel would be neutralized and it would explode in your hand. This is the main reason guns are useless against Jedi. The confusion sets in because while light sabers generally cannot stop speeding bullets (unless in the hands of a Jedi who really wants to), Jedi are only temporarily inconvenienced by any actual firearm, as just before it is deployed the surprise is lost, and if a bullet leaves the barrel, it will be the last time for that gun. Because immediately the gun and gunslinger will become Jedi mind toys. There is probably some limit to the number of barrels a Jedi could Force-crush in some time frame, so if you had a squadren of sharp shooters at point blank range, maybe by luck, some shrapnel might make contact. But far and away the most likey thing that would happen is that no one would survive that plan, except the Jedi.

But assume you were really lucky and a somehow managed a few or several... lets say 10 shots fired on target at a Jedi. Even then all the Jedi must do is avoid the vicinity of those 10 trajectories, which is easy to do when you know the trajectories before the bullets are fired.

I suppose if you somehow tricked a Jedi into some situation, the unarmed Jedi may do some heroic thing like use his own body as a shield. But it is far more likey the Jedi would push the bullet to a neutral trajectory or push something else in its path rather than allow themselves to be shot. Some of them are more dramatic than others.

As for light sabers and guns, sans Jedi, it is physically possible for what is left of a projectile to pass through the plasma of a light saber. The physics of it is easy to imagine, and I'm certain someone could probably even figure that out knowing the variables, energy, mass, time. However, every responsible gun owner knows that even a knife in the hands of an attacker (within a 20ft radius) is enough to make a gun useless. I think its hard to compare what a knife-weilding attacker can do to a side-arm carrier compared to a Jedi with a light saber. Look what Kenobi did to Skywalker... a gun would not have prevented his considerable injury.

Answer 15

Obviously alot of the responses come from people who don't shoot projectile weapons for a living. Indeed in sound theory they can be deflected/vaporized by a light saber but a modern weapon can sling hundreds of rounds down range over and over again and a normal meat bag needs only one to sneak by and bite them. Everything we have seen from Jedi is that they have some clairvoyance but their force push/deflect is not on auto pilot and does not appear to be endless (honestly i haven't seen them use it more than a couple times in a row). You throw in some raufoss rounds with incendiary tips or depleted uranium and your looking at alot of work from a person swinging a saber. Now if you want true jedi killers...sling some cortosis rounds at them and see them deal with a world of hurt that they cant see coming. hmmm mk-19 grenade launcher with white phosphorus and you just drop them in at their feet and let the dancing commence...just sayen. You can make them work hard hard hard for every step at a relatively cheap expenditure, bullets are cheap and easy to produce (earth case in point, laser weapons are...well yea not happening much). Hell just throwing something heavy at them makes them have to stop and throw their hands up and focus on it to "push" it away...sooo lob a VW bus at them and then pound away with a bunch of mini guns pumping out 7.62x51 @ 6000 rounds a minute and watch them try to deflect all that stuff, really the science of deflecting/vaporizing thousands and thousands of rounds (coming from just a few operators) and still be functioning is true fantasy without a personal deflector shield, which are not "common" in cannon. hell order 66 was sent as a coded message and the troopers simply shot them...so no jedi powers saved them from getting shot in the back or a dozen shots in the back (hence they are not invulnerable to weapons fire). Now the points about it being less effective IE archaic...is very reasonable and would lend to the situation of not being as read-ally available but your far more likely to run across projectile weapons on underdeveloped worlds than lasers...I would suspect, so not unheard of.

Answer 16

Besides the obvious 'it wouldn't go with the theme of the movie' I think there's a pretty simple answer. Ballistic firearms are considered old relics in the game because they just don't work anymore. There is technology that trumps all forms of it.

As some have mentioned the futuristic metal they use completely stops cannon level kinetic force. The most modern version of the empire would need to have one encounter with an enemy group using these kinds of weapons, likely having the front empire soldiers turned to swiss cheese because it's been literally centuries since anyone the empire knows of has used that kind of weapon and they don't have armor on meant to handle that.

Then they'd retreat a bit and send in their equivalent of a robot riot control force. That being Durasteel sentry droids over and over until they're all wiped out. Also, frankly, the way they describe the force it sounds like when you master it you basically have an almost physical awareness of your 3 dimensional space. At least for things you can affect using the force.

Who's to say if a jedi was trained in handling these projectiles they could detect and expend a concentrated and tiny force push against it by reflex. Just enough to negate it's speed and have it fall to the ground. Yes like Neo from the Matrix, but a 360 degree sphere. Jedi could detect the heat, the light, and the projectile itself. They learn to block blaster shots by reflex because they know there's never going to be an instance where deflecting a blaster shot would be the wrong thing to do. So without even thinking about it, expending a relatively small amount of the force to stop the bullet would negate most weapons that a human could wield. All you'd need is jedi in a time where this weapon is somewhat common, enough to warrant learning this technique, and you have a literal bullet force-field for your jedi. In the modern time they'd just have the jedi sit this one out and have the rebels send in their own durasteel droids if it attacked the jedi.

I'm not saying these droids exist in universe, I'm saying they could in like 2 days of the Empire or the Rebels finding out they're needed because some idiots tried using these weapons against either side. Considering how fast the droids are built that we've seen in the movies, replacing basic security droids armor with durasteel seems like it'd be fast and effective.

Answer 17

For some reason no one has mentioned you can make slugs explode on impact, release gas on impact, release sonic on impact and other things which could help stun, hurt, kill or just weaken a Jedi's concentration aka their connection to the Force. This is why they're better against Jedi but because of skill needed to use them and production of slugs + shipping slugs they're useless in wars and are considered outdated.

Answer 18

I would say, For Jedi to block bullets. There's an alternative: use the force to shield them or deflect them back. They just find some debris or ground chunks to block the bullet. Maul even did it in the seige of Mandalore's Ark of Clone Wars.

And to calculate the force to deflect. 50 cal back to owner with 900m/s speed (Assume they do barrier stance)

Okay, About time. They would have time for 0.1 sec, which would result in 900 kg of force. As I see Jedi lift objects, I'd rather say it requires some strong Jedi here, or they tend to deflect with lower speed. Stopping is also an option when you consider that Jedi have no aggression and can throw sabers.

I'd rather add a deflector shield to my saber and make it have a sword-core. Not only would it provide more defense (by deflector shield block bullet), but it'd also look cool as hell.